Processing Lab Recommendations

[Stephen Benskin]

I'm just bring up a few questions to consider. It is a common misconception that pushing film has to do with speed adjustment (especially with B&W). The question then becomes is the lab perpetuating a misconception for the sake of the customers or do they believe it themselves? It's not necessarily a sign of a bad lab and I'm not saying this should eliminate any lab from consideration, but I would want to discuss the topic with them in order to better understand their perspective on processing especially if I was considering processing b&w film with them. Talk to the lab about their processing philosophy. Get to know how they think, and do a test of their processing.

Basically, don't just take anybody's recommendation of a lab on faith. Don't assume that the lab knows any more about processing than you do. When I took charge of b&w processing for a major lab, the attached processing chart was what they they were using. I've also attached a page from a Kodak lab survey done years ago. Joe's Basement was at one time considered a top lab. Their results are fairly representative of the survey. Kodak gave the labs two rolls each of a number of different film types asking them to process one Normal and one plus two. Normal can be considered to fall somewhere between CI 0.56 to 0.61 and plus 2 between CI 0.75 and 0.85 for a diffusion enlarger and depending on other considerations.

[Frank Petronio]

In terms of B&W, there are labs who work with a large variety of films and photographers - and who price their processing on a reasonable, competitive number for that. When they get a bunch of TXP, FP4, TMY, all from different photographers who expect "normal" what else would you expect them to do but to follow the data sheets for the film? It's not like E6 or C41 where it is a standardized, calibrated process.

Some, like Praus, will, if you request it, process your film in your choice of chemistry and specs for an extra charge but you have to communicate and have round of testing to get what you want.

There is also a higher level of custom lab work done - by people like Praus or many other fine-art photographers who do lab work - for higher level professions. They become collaborators with the artist and have a very close relationship. For instance, the lab guy for Annie Leibovitz mostly works only with her. A lot of well-off, successful or just plain rich photographers have similar arrangements. But you have to pay, craftspeople and artisans should make a decent living themselves - i.e. not $5 a roll in their laundry room.

What B&W I do with Edgar hasn't been specced as custom but his "normal" is always consistent and I adjust my film speed based on his processing. Is it optimal for an ex-Zone System nerd? Not exactly. But for the value it works fine for me and most of his other customers. My prints look like shit, I know ;-p

[bob carnie]

Hi Stephen

I am back and have had time to revisit this thread, First off I hope my post will not side track the OP original post , I don't think so.

First off there are two or more types of labs, I have worked at a few labs in my day. There are owners that set up and pay high priced technicians and do not print themselves. Then there are those that are set up to process film so the printers are happy and hopefully the photographer.
I fall into the latter , and I know MV Labs does as well so I am a bit surprised with your comments about his film processing blurb book. to be honest I have never read it so maybe its crap, but I do know that the owner is a respected printer.
I suspect the LA labs you refer to are the former. In the mid 90's I was offered to start up a Black White division in one major Lab in Hollywood, but frankly I like Ontario.

I am the only printer at my lab, and I accept clients with an initial meeting. Stephen with all due respect I do not know you but I have read your posts here and on APUG and it seems you have a very high degree of understanding of plotting film, much deeper than my knowledge, but I do have to ask, do you print for others? and if so do you have a long standing history of putting exhibitions on gallery and museum walls?
This is important to me as most of the questions I ask a photographer wanting to work with me are questions about, the look they are wanting to get in their prints as I am going to be the one printing, nobody else , I do not run a lab for quick process and walk away, You must be aware that there are dozens of different styles that a printer may be asked to produce... If this is not readily apparent to you then any thing I say may be of no value to you.
I believe in Normal Process for Normal Lighting Scenes, Expansion Process for Flat Lighting Scenes or specific print process **Lith** and Compaction process for Large Lighting Scenes, **Pyro process usually**
Once I know the look then we discuss the film type that will most help in getting to that look, then we discuss the developer needed to produce the look, then I make the decision on which enlarger is used to create the look.
Next step is to process a couple of runs with the client giving me a exposure bracket and then looking at the negs, then printing , then deciding what ISO for those conditions are required.
Next step is to start working with the photographer and keeping good track of the negs , looking at the negs and making sure we are consistently within a good printing range.
I am a Split Print Printer and I am not as concerned about a consistent Contrast Range on the negative as maybe you are.
I spent my whole adult life looking at negatives , and printing them, I can see immediately if things are going haywire.
We use consistent development and one shot chemistry, for each photographer and their specific projects.

This may be sound really stupid, its the oldest saying in the book, but I like a negative you can read through the highlights and has a low base density plus fog... unless of course it is a pyro or rodinal neg.
I have a Lambda unit here that we run film with and it needs to have 21 steps balanced before running, so I am Ok there.

But here is a question for you... would you rely on your eyes to see a colour shift , or would you rely on a plot.

Answer: when we run a 21 step on a lambda for paper , or even on inkjet, the densitometer will say you are in balance, but your eyes will perceive a slight cast
When we ran internegative film in the 80s we had three ways of plotting and getting to a certain point.. The final say was printing a graduated grey scale and visually
doing the final balance...... hmmmmmm any operator worth their weight would be able to tell you this little fact.
I am not knocking sensitometric readings as they are invaluable in getting you too the ball park, once you are there , you trust your eyes and experience..

The second post is a bit about the different types of systems I have used to process film, I hope this post gives you insight into Elevator and our working methods. I certainly defer to your curve plotting skills and will look into your articles in the future. I am curious though about your responsiblity's in the labs you worked at in regards to printing?

[bob carnie]

Ok here is more stuff about processes , pros and cons.

Basic ways of processing film,

Basket Line
BW - film on reels and dropped into the soup as the time ticked down, each photographer would give times for each roll.
Pros- lots of film per day could be run, easy to calculate chemical balances
- dead simple to run and maintain.
Cons- hard to control, agitation is critical and hard to maintain good edge to edge density,
very dangerous in wrong hands.
-difficult position to find competent people, I mean who the hell wants to stand all day long in a small stinkin room processing film for others.
Colour - same as above , not as many times available in C41, temps harder to maintain, never did this with E6 but knew of labs that did.

Elevator started with this type of processing, but after successfully launching business found this method hard to keep up with good staff.

Refrema- E6 - High quality and High volume capabilities, need a first rate tech who understands sensitometry. (sounds like you Stephen]
These machines are hungry and need lots of film, plus minimum 5 control strips a day to balance the machine.
When mechanical problems occur these machines become your worst nightmare as you do lose film and photographers become tough.
I managed Colourgenics here in Toronto which constantly won Fuji control plot competitions,, you remember those days?? Basically in Toronto there were only two good E6 labs, Colourgenics and Steichanlab. Any photographer worth their salt would have their film run at either... Steichan was set up for Fashion and ran a warmer line, Colourgenics ran a more neutral line and was preferred by studio still life photographers.
In both labs the NORMAL was a push 1/3 with room to drop back dev and still lots of room to push the time.
The Refremas both were modified by an Indian dude, Terry , who would work on the nitrogen burst systems to give top to bottom side to side even agitation We would expose nuetral gray cards load them on a full rack and run them and the aim was to get equal density on all areas of the film, Terry's job was to make the density even and believe me he was a very busy man for years and made some decent coin.
THESE MACHINES NEED LOTS OF FILM AND ARE DIFFICULT TO CONTROL AND OPERATE WITHOUT A GOOD OPERATOR AND CONSISTENT WORK.

Then there were the rest of the dip and dunk labs that I hated, they did not give a crap about process control, if they ran a control strip a day it would be a good day. probably did not read them and if they did probably could not adjust.
These are the people who’s film I will not process.

Roller Transport- yes a lot of labs run roller transport, then with digital Ice get rid of the shit or scratches , make small prints and send it out... This was and is done with Black and White and colour and when I have tried to print this film on my condenser enlarger, every scratch, blotch, shows, a total failure.

Small Tank hand process... Actually I think this is probably the best method to do your own film, with practice great agitation, with practice good rhythm, and timing.
One shot process , cannot get any better.
Jobo , semi automatic processing is how Elevator does film now, but due to Jobo out of business this way will need some thinking.

Pros-, Consistent Temp, Agitation, Time control.
- operator can set up the run, start, then load more film and continue as well can do this work
in a more pleasing atmosphere.
-Many runs per day can be done with accuracy, film washing is done off Jobo.
Cons- finding parts and labour is getting difficult.


Tray Process- many here do this for their film, I have never done this so I have no opinion.

for large lambda beta testing purposes I am processing 20 inch x 40 inch sheets of film off my lambda in trays... works well but I will get a machine to make this much more easier.



Future- I am currently in the works of making a rotary machine that I can use for processing.
it will be semi automatic and able to use my existing reels and tanks.
I am also starting a basket line again for personal work , and will also be hand processing in small tank.

[David Solow]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I gotten back some film from Praus Productions. The quality and service are excellent. It's worth the extra time. Even with the cost of getting the film to Rochester, I'm paying less than what I would locally.

David

[Stephen Benskin]

Bob,

Sounds like a very impressive set-up. As you said, not everyone is as conscientious as your lab. That's all I'm saying. Not everyone is the same, so it's a good idea to test any lab before sending them your work.

I printed in the first lab I worked at. I consider myself a photographer first and I consider printing to be my strongest suit. Even commercial printing takes some creative energy. I didn't want to waste my energy on other people's work. Lab work was just a day job. Processing B&W film allowed me to use the analytical part of my brain plus I was able to do research with other people's money. The research also made-up for the monotony of doing the actual processing.

Steve

[datachrome]

Data-chrome.com in Santa Ana California does great processing of all formats of E6.
Mail order form is on web site. Owner runs the film no employees.

[datachrome]

Data-chrome.com Mail order accepted.