LF new guy - help setting up a shot

[chassis]

Hello all,

I'm new to LF, and pretty excited to start shooting. I acquired a nice Toyo 45AII and 150mm Nikkor. Now I need a few film holders and a light meter to start shooting.

A shot I want to do is a football on the grass, with a good background, such as a goalpost, scoreboard or something like that. I want the football in the foreground, as near as possible to the lens, and the goalpost/scoreboard/press box in the background.

I would like some input on the composition. I could do the football in sharp focus, leave the lens at a wide aperture and have the background in soft focus, but still discernable. Another thought (my first idea) was to have the foreground and background both in sharp focus, whenceforth comes my question.

What is an approximately minimum foreground to lens distance I can achieve, while having the background (50-100 yds away) still in sharp focus. And would my camera + lens combination have the amount of coverage needed with the required amount of front tilt? The lens is a 150mm W Nikkor.

The question sounds complicated but I think this is a pretty straightforward LF shot. I just have never done it before, so I need to get my LF spidey senses calibrated. Thanks for any input.

[D. Bryant]

Hello all,

I'm new to LF, and pretty excited to start shooting. I acquired a nice Toyo 45AII and 150mm Nikkor. Now I need a few film holders and a light meter to start shooting.

A shot I want to do is a football on the grass, with a good background, such as a goalpost, scoreboard or something like that. I want the football in the foreground, as near as possible to the lens, and the goalpost/scoreboard/press box in the background.

I would like some input on the composition. I could do the football in sharp focus, leave the lens at a wide aperture and have the background in soft focus, but still discernable. Another thought (my first idea) was to have the foreground and background both in sharp focus, whenceforth comes my question.

What is an approximately minimum foreground to lens distance I can achieve, while having the background (50-100 yds away) still in sharp focus. And would my camera + lens combination have the amount of coverage needed with the required amount of front tilt? The lens is a 150mm W Nikkor.

The question sounds complicated but I think this is a pretty straightforward LF shot. I just have never done it before, so I need to get my LF spidey senses calibrated. Thanks for any input.

Well 100 ydsaway would put you on the goal line at the other end of the field. The size of the objects in the background will be tiny and diminished.

Get the ball and move it up field about 75 yds. Truthfully you probably need a wider angle lens to do what I think you want to do.

My 2 cents.

[AFSmithphoto]

Nice camera. Congrats!

Yes closer to the goal posts/scoreboard is better, and you should be prepared to stop down a bit. The Depth of field in 4x5 is TINY!

Movements can be used to manipulate the plane of focus, but they aren't a perfect cure for every ill.

If you keep the back of the camera vertical (As I would suggest to avoid noticeable distortion in the background geometry.) front tilt will only take you so far before the top of the background is sharp and the bottom is soft.

If you bias the football to either the right or left of the frame and the background to the opposite side you will likely find swing helpful to you. I believe your camera allows for some rear swing; if it does, employ that BEFORE front swing as you can likely move to the limits without running out of image circle.
This will also effect the geometry of the background, but not unlike shooting it at an angle. Just keep an eye on the ground glass as you move and make sure you like what you see. Once you either reach the limit or a point where you feel the background is becoming distorted you can than use front swing (in a direction opposite to the back swing) to get you the rest of the way there.

Finally, if you haven't got your heart set on the angle in which the football appears in the final composition, pick a point about one third back from the front of the football (Maybe about the second or third stitch?) and use that as your focus point.

Get that point as sharp as you can while keeping the background focused. Now rotate the football AT that point until it is parallel to the plane of focus. (If you can find someone to rotate the ball FOR you while you look through the ground glass it will help you resist the urge to punt your new camera through the uprights.)

If you don't get what you're looking for on the first shot don't beat yourself up. Ithought myself a pretty skilled photographer when I got my first 4x5 (Super Graphic) and it was quite some time before I made anything I liked better than the stuff I was churning out with my Rolleiflex.

Welcome to a more challenging and rewarding world!

[chassis]

Thanks folks, very helpful. The camera does allow rear swing, so I will try it, I hadn't thought of using rear swing.

I do see the advantage a wider lens would give me, but for now I am willing to try to work out the shot with the 150mm. This process of composition, camera movements and focus is very different to 35mm and MF, so I need to learn how it works. Thanks again.

[rdenney]

You need front tilt, not rear swing. (Or aim the whole camera down and use rear tilt if that's what you have). Imagine a plane that runs on the surface of the football and then through the distant goal-post. That plan will be almost horizontal. Now, visualize how the surface of the film, the lens board, and that plane will all intersect. Probably, that intersection point will be near the ground right beneath the camera. Thus, the film and the lens board need to be tilted so that their planes intersection at that point near the ground.

If you want to keep the goal-posts vertical, then the back will need to be vertical. Thus, getting the film and the lens board to intersect the subject plane will require that you tilt the lens down with respect to the vertical film surface. Use whatever movements your camera has to achieve that.

If the film, lens board, and subject plane all intersect, then everything in that subject plane will be in focus. Stopping down to improve depth of field will bring into acceptable sharpness items that are above and below that subject plane.

If the lens runs out of coverage so that it won't illuminate the whole film area when tilted in the way I'm describing, then you need a lens with more coverage. Longer lenses generally have more coverage, and they also keep background items larger with respect to foreground items. You can also use a more distant camera position. But the tilting requirements will be pretty similar.

Rick "tilts are your friend" Denney

[John Koehrer]

Why not? use a mask at the lens and shoot one half at a time? Then you could focus alternately on both objects?
Cokin used to have a setup for this available. I have no idea if it worked well or not or if at all.

[chassis]

Hello again,

I have shot this image twice. First with a 150mm which was not at all what I visualized. The football was far too small. The image was very plain and literal.

I re-did the shot with a 58mm SA XL, and the result was much more in line with my visualization. The football was much more prominent in the foreground. The football was about 18 inches from the lens, and the camera was on the 10 yard line. I am trying to create a strong feeling of "football", which will likely be presented as gifts to my son and his football teammates.

The current challenge is getting the camera low enough to the ground to accentuate the football, while maintaining the top of the goalpost in the image frame. If I am doing my angle of view calculations correctly, I should be able to be near the goal line and keep the whole goalpost in the image, with a vertical film plane and lens axis in the neutral (center) position. The 58mm on a Toyo 45AII has almost no useable lens movement in this situation due to bellows compression (no bag bellows available as far as I know).

What is the best way to get a camera on the ground? Is it a tripod with a center column, or should I build a base with a sand bag or rice bag, or something similar? The exposure is around 1 sec. or so at f/22 or f/32. Film is Tri-X rated at 250.

Thanks for any input on this setup.

p.s. I realize an image would be helpful; for now I am choosing to live in an analog (photography) world.

[John Koehrer]

You could build a base, piece of ply with a mounting screw. Mount the camera on the bottom of the center column, reverse it if needed. Bogen Super clamp & Magic Arm that would allow the arm to be clamped on a tripod leg or Lateral arm. Better be careful mounting the camera upside down on the column, wouldn't want the image to be right side up.

[chassis]

I'm still flogging this shot. I am close with the composition, but won't know until I process the film tonight and print the negative tomorrow. The composition challenges are placement of the subject elements and camera position. With the wide angle lens, and sizes/distances of the subjects elements, small changes in camera position result in big changes in image composition. Composition is not my strong suit so I am doing this by trial and error. The camera was on the goal line, which for non American football lovers is 10 yards from the vertical goal posts.

The L758DR meter gave the same reading for incident and spot, when the spot was on a "middle gray" subject area. The light meter app for the iPhone gave a reading of a half stop less exposure than the Sekonic, which IMHO is OK. Exposure details:

Lens: Schneider 58mm f/5.6 Super Angulon XL with 2 stop center filter
Film: Tri-X 4x5 rated at 250
Exposure: 2s at f/22

Once I am happy with composition I have to get the lighting and exposure right. I'm less concerned about this, because I am more comfortable in my skills in this area.

Camera and gear ready to go.


This is the shot (not a great rendering but the idea is there)

[chassis]

Here is the print (in the fixer tray). This is a work print to help me work out composition, focus and lighting. There are some printing errors, but I am getting a feeling for what this subject + lens combo is capable of. I am trying for a stronger presence of the football, while keeping the goalpost and scoreboard in focus.

Next shot I may see how the image feels if the football is in critical focus, with a wide open lens. Will the goalpost and scoreboard melt into the bokeh, or will they be discernable?