A newbie asking silly questions.

[megapickle1]

Hallo largefomat experts. I need your help and advice to assemble a large format system for me, an absolutely newbie.
I`m lurking for several month at this forum because, not at least infected by the great Josef Sudek, it is my dream to do large format photography. Spoiled by the amenities of MF-Systems I am not able to decide what would be the right large format system for me.
In large format I want to photograph still lives, people, landscapes and interiors. I think, the camera should have 5“x7“ format, a revolving back and the possibility to use 4“x5“ backs for polaroids. As I have some monetary limits the gear must not be the very best but it should be tough and should work precisely.
I ask you for your kind suggestions regarding camera system and lenses and some hints regarding the film to use.
Thank you and excuse for this long post.
George

[Ari]

Hi George,
There's a wealth of information on the forum, just do a search.
In buying a camera outfit, you may go through several cameras or methods of working before finding the equipment and approach that suit you best.
It's a process, and there is no perfect camera for everything and everyone.
Start simply: basic camera, lens for about $200-$300 and go from there.
Only by actually working with the tools will you see their pros and cons.
But do more research as well.
Good luck!

[rdenney]

I think, the camera should have 5“x7“ format, a revolving back and the possibility to use 4“x5“ backs for polaroids. As I have some monetary limits the gear must not be the very best but it should be tough and should work precisely.

There is an old saying among telescope makers who grind their own mirrors: "If you want to grind a 12" mirror, grind a 6" mirror first." The idea is that what you learn with the smaller mirror will allow you to save more time than it cost to grind it when grinding the 12" mirror.

Thus, I would recommend starting with 4x5, and seeing if large format is for you before attempting 5x7. 5x7 is a middle format, and probably the least well supported with available good cheap stuff compared with either 4x5 or 8x10. Thus, it tends to be pricier than either.

But it is quite easy to fulfill all your requirements in 4x5.

The rotating back is not as useful as you might think. I have cameras with it, and cameras without it, and find that while I use it if it's there, I never miss it when it's not.

I believe that the best first 4x5 camera for one who wants to work on a tripod is a metal monorail view camera. It is more flexible than any others, often better made, cheaper in the market because of excess supply and utilitarian image, and, most importantly for beginners, easy to understand.

Cameras that fulfill your requirements include such as a Cambo SCII (which has a rotating back), which was also sold as a Calumet 45n, a Sinar F (no rotating back but as I said you won't miss it), and a Calumet CC-400. These range in price from $100-200 for the Calumets to $300-400 for the Sinar, not including needed accessories and lenses (though one lens may be included). The Sinar and Cambo (including the Cambo-made Calumet 45n) are the most modular and flexible, and both are strongly supported with a range of parts and accessories on ebay. The Sinar lacks the rotating back (though you won't miss it) but it is part of a better made system overall. If you then buy a Sinar 5x7, all your lens boards and most other accessories wills still work.

Buy one of these and use it. Then, if you decide to go a different direction or to make the jump to a larger format, you'll be able to sell it for what you paid for it and it will have been like free rent. Most of what you buy to go along with it, including lenses, if selected carefully, will work with other cameras and even the 5x7 format. For example, you might have a choice between a 120-ish mm plasmat or a Super Angulon for a lens of that focal length. The Super Angulon will also serve as an excellent strong wide for 5x7, because it has sufficient image circle to cover the larger format. That's an example of choosing carefully to support a later switch to 5x7.

Rick "thinking an all-metal quality monorail is a better beginner choice than most others" Denney

[Leigh]

Hello, George, and welcome aboard.

Permit me to make a couple of observations...

One major consideration when looking at different formats/sizes is the availability of lenses. You'll find a much greater range and selection available for 4"X5" than for larger formats.

For example, I have twelve lenses for my 4x5, from 65mm to 360mm, almost a 6:1 range. In contrast, I only have four lenses for my 8"x10" camera, from 240mm to 450mm, less than a 2:1 range. As the format gets larger, the selection of lenses that will cover the film decreases dramatically.

In selecting lenses, there are two parameters of interest: 1) image circle diameter, and 2) flange focal length (FFL).

The image circle (IC) is the area that's illuminated by the lens. It's usually specified at f/22, although for some lenses it's at f/16. Also it's typically spec'd for subjects at infinity, although for macro lenses it's normally given for images at actual size (1:1 ratio), which is about twice the size for a subject at infinity.

The IC determines how much movement you can use with the lens mounted on the camera. You can move the lens up and down (rise and fall) or side to side (shift) until the edge of the image circle hits a corner of the film. Any further movement will cause vignetting of the image.

The FFL determines whether or not you can focus a lens at infinity on a particular camera. The FFL is the distance from the front of the lensboard to the film, and is usually not equal to the optical focal length of the lens. In fact it can be quite a bit different, usually longer than the optical FL for short lenses, and shorter than the FL for long lenses.

The longest FFL that a camera can support is achieved with the bellows at its maximum extension. However, to focus on subjects closer than infinity, the lens must move away from the film, so you need more bellows extension for practical use. To focus at life size (1:1), the lens must extend forward from its infinity position by a distance equal to its optical focal length.

Both the IC and FFL parameters are found on the data sheets for all modern lenses. Those values for vintage lenses can usually be found on the internet.

In case you haven't guessed, I'm suggesting a 4x5 format rather than 5x7, mainly due to the availability of a large selection of inexpensive equipment. If you really want a 1.4:1 aspect ratio (5x7) rather than 1.2:1 (4x5), you can always crop the image when you print it.

Regarding film...
I only shoot black & white in LF, and always slow films, so I use Fuji Acros (100 speed) or Ilford FP4+ (125). Both films yield superb definition and gray scale. If you're shooting in low light with long exposure times, use Acros. It requires no reciprocity correction up to 120 seconds, and only 1/2 stop from there to 1000 seconds.

Anyhow, just some suggestions. Welcome, and let us know how we can help.

- Leigh

[megapickle1]

Thank you all for your kind answers.
Why 5x7? Simply because I´m 64 and my eyes are not the best anymore. So it would be easier for me to look on an 5x7 screen an get the focus right I think. I know, that 5x7" is no more supplied sufficiently. Certainly an 8x10 system would be my favorit but these cameras are really pricey, huge and heavy and not the most comfortable to walk around with them. As I lurked around for long time in this forum I know about the lens restictions in larger formats eg. 5x7 or 8x10. I know so well, that my first attempts will be very dolorous and I´m prepared to get some fillips. The first photographs will be very disappointing for Í tend to perfectionism. You`ll heare me cursing around. But my
asking you all was about what camera system would cover my wishes. Is it Toyo or Canham or Wista, Wiesner, Linhof etc.
Thank you again for your patience with an old jerk.
George

[megapickle1]

And I have to mention that I`ll have to learn all the process, loading film (I have no darkroom) avoiding dust, set the camera, look and compose with a reversed picture on the groundglass, find the focus, think about adding exposure time for closeups and, and, and...... But I`m a bullheaded guy, I want to learn it and instantaneously please. The photographs I have seen from the masters are itching my soul. It makes me impatient and nervous not to be able to do like them.
Sorry, that kind of man I am. Born in April you know.... not very easy to deal with.
Cheers
George

[cjbroadbent]

George,
Start at the other end. Are you going to print contacts without an enlarger - are you going to enlarge - are you going to just scan your negatives and make ink-jet prints?
Any old 5x7 or even 8x10 for contact prints, a 4x5 with a 3-way front for enlarging, an un-fussy 4x5 for scanning.
One lens (only one) as near in focal length to the length of your film format. For real fun, an old iris lens holder on an extra board, for trying out brass lenses.
No rotating back, no reducing back. Use a digiroid. Polaroids cost more than film and supply is uncertain.
The less gear you have, the more you'll get done.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

5x7 might be a nice size to work with if contact printing portraits or alternative process prints. It's handy for scanning with a cheap flatbed scanner. Likely too is that if B+W is still going to being done optically with an enlarger there a quality advantage over 4x5 that might be noticed printing outsized prints.

For most folks, these attributes are going to be greatly offset nowadays by a couple of other practical considerations. First, are you going to shoot color? I ask because 5x7 and larger color film has very poor to non-existent availability. Second is that scanning-to-hybrid printing is good for a resolution gain approximately equal to a format jump. Outrageously large prints can be made from 4x5, and from panoramic 120 film cameras. Third, all these will have a great many more choices in optics at the extremes. Too, as commercial photographers abandon 4x5, common wide angle and and normal lenses (and studio monorail cameras) are practically being given away typically at 1/5 to 1/10 of what they originally cost new.

P.S. a pair of strong diopter reading glasses made a huge difference for me using a 4x5... First ones I ever bought at age 48 were specifically for under the darkcloth and it's made 4x5 use much more enjoyable.

[Jeff Keller]

"I want to photograph still lives, people, landscapes and interiors." ... with the exception of landscapes, it sounds like weight is not a big issue and that a monorail would be a good match. Sinar is a good one to consider. It would be easy to get 4x5 then add 5x7 parts to what you previously got. They can handle very short or very long focal lengths by adding the appropriate pieces.

"Is it Toyo or Canham or Wista, Wiesner, Linhof etc." sounds like you are leaning towards lighter more portable cameras than the typical monorail.

The box cameras (Linhof Technika, Wista, Horseman HD) are the easiest to carry arround but generally don't have the range of movements of a monorail.

The Canham (for me) is a great choice. It and many cameras don't have a rotating back but the back is easily removed, rotated, and clipped back in place to change between landscape and portrait formats. The Canham MQC (5x7) has great bellows range and movements. It is light and small enough to easily carry. 4x5 adapters are readily available although not inexpensive allowing you to shoot 4x5 or 5x7 with the same camera.

With LF vs 35mm you would probably find yourself shooting the equivalent of shorter focal lengths. With your background in MF your most used equivalent focal lengths probably wouldn't change but long focal lengths are more challenging for a LF setup. The extremes are the most difficult or impossible for the box cameras.

Welcome and good luck,
Jeff Keller

[megapickle1]

Thank you again for your kindness! Really, you all are very patient and kind with me.

I think I have to clear up the screens. Look, I´m 64, so (I think) I have no time for experiments. I have no darkroom, I´m not doing any developing work or printing at home. I use to hand over all this to my lab. I want to make the last investment of my life in photographic gear and buy a large format camera system (camera and lenses). This, for me totally new field, will occupy all my remaining time beside my job and this is a very short period in my case. I have made only 32 photographs (MF) this year, its a shame and I am very disappointed about it. And angry about me too.

I don´t think about contact prints or similar things, not about developers and developing times or the paper for printing. I know, this behavoir is not appropriate to a large format photographer. All I want to do is to find the right locations (a work of several weeks) and make some satisfying (me) photographs. I am only interested in results and they have to be excellent. A crazy man, isn`t me?

From all your hints I have learned, that a monorail system will supposably the right gear for my appraoch to large format photography. I think, a "normal" lens (250mm) and a wideangle (120mm) will be sufficient. I have a sturdy tripod for my RB67 and I believe it will work well with large format too.

Oh my God, you all are so kind and I am impatient like a child. Sorry!

Thank you and good night (its 11 p.m. in Germany).
George