So many variables!

[mfratt]

I'm trying to nail down my ideal development process. When I first started, I began looking for the "answers" to my questions about time, agitation, etc, but I quickly found that the only answer was "test, test, test."

So test, test, test I will...

But where to begin?

I'm working right now with Ilford Delta 100 in HC-110 Dil B, using trays.

I need to figure out what I should use as a baseline N development time.

I need to figure out which agitation scheme works best for me.

I need to figure out push / pull times for each stop.

I need to figure out the real-world EI of the film.

And each variable effects each other. My head is spinning with trying to figure out how to test these.

I just finished processing about twelve sheets, two at a time, playing with varying combinations of agitation and time. I developed at 5, 5.5, and 6 minutes (Spec sheet says 6), and for agitation I flipped to the next sheet continuously for the first minute, then cut it to every 5, 10, or 15 seconds. My negatives came out acceptable, but overall pretty flat.

I guess with all this I'm left with two specific questions

a) Where do I begin in my "test, test, testing" when theres so much to test, all of which is inter-related?

b) In terms of agitation, I've seen people suggesting to do things like agitating for 15 seconds every minute. How does this work in tray processing? Do I just flip through the sheets for x seconds then let them sit? Wont the sheets in the middle develop differently in that case? Also, when you flip sheets in the tray, do you bump the tray too to agitate more, or is just the moving of the film enough agitation?

I don't know whats making me more dizzy, trying to quantify all of these variables (which my personality necessitates), or the chemistry I've been breathing in all night.

Thanks in advance for you advice!

[Peter Gomena]

I find slow, constant agitation best for sheet film. I will process up to six sheets of 4x5 film at a time in 8x10" trays, shuffling through the deck about twice per minute. To help with consistency, if I have only four or five sheets to process, I will put one or two "dummy sheets" (failed sheets from previous batches, fixed, washed, dried) into the stack so that the amount of agitation remains the same.

The number of variables is a bit daunting when you're first starting out. Film exposure, developer, development time, temperature, agitation. Consistency is the key.

Peter Gomena

[Chuck P.]

So test, test, test I will...

Trial and error testing will drive you crazy............choose a known system of exposure and development that works i.e. BTZS of ZS. I personnally like the ZS method.

I suggest you learn to test using a 21-step step tablet and a densitometer---keep an eye on ebay for some deals on a transmission densitometer. Once in hand and you understand how to test, it's very simple and quick. You can produce the characteristic curve and determine the EI with one sheet of film. If you wanted to try three different developers with your film, you could produce three characteristic curves and determine the EI for each easily in a day--just trying to emphasize how easy it is once you understand the process. Generating the "plus" and "minus" times is also just as easy.

An excellant text I have found is The Ansel Adams Guide, Basic Techniques of Photography Book 2. Contains a very practical ZS testing procedure using the step tablet.

[ic-racer]

I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Film speed and development are independent variables.
No need to push unless you want underexposed negatives.
Use multigrade paper and develop everything for N
Set your exposure index with the simple 0.1 test using your own equipment.

[CG]

It sounds like you may still be sorting out film processing. If I'm misreading your post, my apologies. But, if you are somewhat new at it, I'd urge you to batch the solving of all your questions into smaller portions. Your range of questions suggests that you want to get a grip on a very broad bunch of things, all at once. That's laudable, but I think that it may be more productive to start with solving just one problem. Sort it out, and then move to the next...

I'd begin with sorting out an agitation scheme that works for you. If you want the zone system to give you a lot of control, processing consistency is a vital underpinning to it all. There's no magic in any agitation scheme, but the principles behind the various agitation schemes are very widely written about and easy to search on the net. Many threads are searchable here and on APUG ( www.apug.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13 ) on agitation. Some folks have a plan where they agitate 30 seconds the first minute, say 10 seconds each following minute till say the fifth minute and then 5 seconds each minute till... and so on. Some folks just do 30 seconds to start and then 10 per minute thereafter. There's a lot of room for finding what plan fits you. I'm not sure that which one particular plan or other you select matters much within the average range of options, as long as you stick with it absolutely faithfully so that you can get consistent results.

Be consistent with the other basics. Use fresh developer. Use fresh everything. Agitate with the same vigor every time. Keep to the times and temperatures exactly. If you are absolutely consistent in how you develop, it will soon be clear if there is a need to mess with exposure ratings and contrast to perfect your "normal" exposure speed and normal development. After that you will have a really solid jumping off point, and the tools to go as far as you like in the zone system, in as rigorous a manner as suits you.

BW darkroom work and film are really pretty forgiving, and that makes Ic-racer's advise above one very sensible way to go. Keep it simple. If you find you want more control at the negative stage, you can customize the exposure / development tango as much as you want - once your processing is no longer a variable.

[mfratt]

It sounds like you may still be sorting out film processing. If I'm misreading your post, my apologies. But, if you are somewhat new at it, I'd urge you to batch the solving of all your questions into smaller portions. Your range of questions suggests that you want to get a grip on a very broad bunch of things, all at once. That's laudable, but I think that it may be more productive to start with solving just one problem. Sort it out, and then move to the next...

I'd begin with sorting out an agitation scheme that works for you. If you want the zone system to give you a lot of control, processing consistency is a vital underpinning to it all. There's no magic in any agitation scheme, but the principles behind the various agitation schemes are very widely written about and easy to search on the net. Many threads are searchable here and on APUG ( www.apug.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13 ) on agitation. Some folks have a plan where they agitate 30 seconds the first minute, say 10 seconds each following minute till say the fifth minute and then 5 seconds each minute till... and so on. Some folks just do 30 seconds to start and then 10 per minute thereafter. There's a lot of room for finding what plan fits you. I'm not sure that which one particular plan or other you select matters much within the average range of options, as long as you stick with it absolutely faithfully so that you can get consistent results.

Be consistent with the other basics. Use fresh developer. Use fresh everything. Agitate with the same vigor every time. Keep to the times and temperatures exactly. If you are absolutely consistent in how you develop, it will soon be clear if there is a need to mess with exposure ratings and contrast to perfect your "normal" exposure speed and normal development. After that you will have a really solid jumping off point, and the tools to go as far as you like in the zone system, in as rigorous a manner as suits you.

BW darkroom work and film are really pretty forgiving, and that makes Ic-racer's advise above one very sensible way to go. Keep it simple. If you find you want more control at the negative stage, you can customize the exposure / development tango as much as you want - once your processing is no longer a variable.

Very helpful, thank you.

And yes, I am pretty new to film processing. I'm the type of person that, when I find I enjoy something (especially something technical like photography, or my other hat, music), I just try to gobble up as much knowledge as possible about it. Well, theres a Thanksgiving dinner in front of me with this one and I just want to eat it all at once!

But I'll get to work right away at settling myself on an agitation scheme. Makes sense to me.

[rdenney]

Very helpful, thank you.

And yes, I am pretty new to film processing. I'm the type of person that, when I find I enjoy something (especially something technical like photography, or my other hat, music), I just try to gobble up as much knowledge as possible about it. Well, theres a Thanksgiving dinner in front of me with this one and I just want to eat it all at once!

But I'll get to work right away at settling myself on an agitation scheme. Makes sense to me.

Remember that Ansel Adams did not devise the Zone System, per se, until many years after he had started as a professional photographer. When he was first learning, he realized that if he set his exposure for the shadows, he could then control the highlights on the basis of how long he developed. He then started experimenting with different development times to see how much he could control the development of the highlights with respect to the shadows. By the time he applied real rigor to that test, he had already cemented his basic technique.

If your film is coming out with even development, then your agitation method is fine, at least for now. Do it that way every time. Establishing that technique is more a matter of what physically works for you moving film sheets in and out of trays, so that you know you can do it that way every time.

If your shadow details have the texture you intended, then you are exposing properly. If you set your exposure on the basis that Zone III measurements would fall on Zone III, and they do, then you have your film speed and basic exposure technique down. Do it that way every time.

Then, it's a matter of determining how long to develop so that the highlights do what you want them to do. If you have texture on subject scenes that fell on Zone VIII, then your basic N development is on target. You'll develop less to attain less contrast and more to attain more contrast. But get that basic development to your satisfaction before trying to alter it. Getting that consistent development will require careful temperature control, but again it's not so much whether it's 68 or 75, but that you can do it that way every time.

Once you have control over basic technique so that you are unconsciously repeatable, then you can start to vary this and that to see what you might achieve in addition to that. By that time, you'll know that you can produce a proper negative for any normal scene, and you'll be able to make adjustments one at a time and see their effects.

Adams made revolutionary photos before he had the details of the Zone System really worked out. It's worth remembering.

Rick "who can only test one thing at a time" Denney

[Neal Chaves]

You may have heard "The first film you develop should be with the lights on." This is good advice since film/developer combinations can be quite different from one another. With sheet film under white light, pull one sheet out of the stack in the developer every minute. Don't loose track of the order into the fixer and wash. So now when dry (hang them in order) mark each with minutes of development and proceed to light box. Note the density difference that one minute changes in development time make. For example, you have five sheets of HP5+ developed in HC110B at 75 deg. for 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 minutes. Pick the one that would make a good bright snow density or bright white background. You may hear it said that this is the density through which you can barely read a newspaper in bright light.

Now you have a beginning development time and you can expose some film for a speed test. Make some prints of normally lighted subject matter and see how they look. Repeat as needed for other film speeds and contrast control. Remember. Exposure builds density while development builds contrast.

[txind76121]

I never could develop 4x5 film evenly in trays. I wasted a lot of time trying (and if you think you've got it down, try exposing a few sheets carefully to an evenly-lit medium-gray and stick them in your stack. I think you might be horrified at what you find). The View Camera Store still sells BTZS tubes, don't they? To me that's the best method for developing 4x5 sheet film. The BTZS tubes really do give even development.

[Shen45]

All of your questions will be answered with BTZS. Contact the viewcamera store and they can answer some questions for you.

also www.BTZS.org



Steve