De Vere 8x10 + Sinar/Copal shutter

[cyberjunkie]

I have recently acquired an old De Vere 8x10 view camera (older than 1965, it has exagonal monorail).
I am looking for somebody who knows very well these cameras, cause i have a few not-so-trivial questions, and i'd like to get some help.
Before getting the camera, i knew mostly nothing about De Vere view cameras, the only thing i have learned from browsing the forum was that the camera has a very sturdy construction, and that is very heavy. Both infos were confirmed my my first hand-on impressions.
The seller also confirmed that the lensboards are compatible with older Sinar ones (i.e. same dimensions).
I purchased the camera for one reason: its price (and because the monorail extension and the bag bellows were included, as well as a half-plate back and a few lensboards!).

What i must understand is the level of compatibility/interchangeability between the De Vere and old Sinar view cameras.
I have no experience with Sinar cameras, most of my LF stuff is Linhof, the only Sinar parts i have at home are an old 4x5 back and a few lensboards (one DB and a couple of Norma's).
The main problems i found with the new camera were the availability of lenses with enough coverage, and how to fix the bag bellows (made of vinyl/fake leather, badly repaired and still with some light leaks). While i think i can tackle the light leaks with the stuff i have already at home, a couple of new lenses for 8x10 must be purchased, no way around
Being a very low budget project, i have no intention to spend too much money on lenses, but i found that most of the affordable ones are not in shutter!
To be sincere, i have already two lenses that could do:
1) a G-Claron 240mm in Copal Press No. 1. The factory specs show a coverage that's 1mm short of the required one... maybe with a stop closer it would cover, but definitely no movements!
2) a Zeiss Jena Tessar 4.5/300mm. A huge, heavy glass, in very good condition. If i remember it's even coated, but no way to mount it in shutter.

In the meantime i have found an usable wide angle (a 160mm Meyer Aristostigmat), and a couple process lenses (Apo-Nikkor 480mm and Red Dot Artar 420mm). The former will probably cover only with close subjects, while the latter... i'll see; but all of them in barrell.
So when i was searching for large shutters, i found a Sinar/Copal shutter, and on a whim i got it, together with a Copal Press No. 0, for the same money of two used No. 3 shutters, maybe even something less.
The Sinar shutter is one of the more recent versions, with aperture scale, and it came with both a shutter release cable and a flash sync adapter. Another vendor even had the other flex adapter, that connects to the Sinar backs... but the Sinar back i have at home is a 4x5, and its adaptation to the De Vere is neither simple nor easy to happen in the near future, so i gave it a miss.
From the pdf manual i found online, i get that it's possible to operate the shutter without that connection, as there is a lever that open and coses the shutter blades, for focusing.

AFTER buying the shutter, i found a few posts that were totally against the possibility of successfully adapting the Sinar shutters on non-Sinar cameras... but i have also found a nice picture of a gorgeous ULF camera with the same shutter adapted on its lensboard!
The two main caveats i have found are:
1) it's best don't reverse the shutter because an heavy lens could rip off the bellows attachment. So the shutter should operate the way it was supposed to do
2) The back of the lens should be at around 1mm in front of the shutter. I think that the only reason is that the more the shutter is distanced, the more there is a chance of vignetting

Of course i still don't have the shutter in my hands. It will take some time, cause i purchased it from across the ocean. In the meantime i trying to understand if De Vere bellows are compatible (i.e. same attachment) with Sinar ones, and which would be the best way to follow, trying to adapt the Sinar/Copal to my camera.
If only i had the chance to have these infos before, i could try to save some time having part of the work done in advance. For example adapting a couple of Sinar lensboards so that the back element of the lens sits flush with the back of the board.

If somebody with specific experience, or simply more at ease with this kind of works (i am not), is willing to help, i can provide a few pictures

BTW, the Apo-Nikkor, still on its way, have this strange electrical shutter (see attachment)
Any clue about pin-out?

have fun
CJ

[Brian Stein]

cant help you with much except to note that many folks feel the g-claron will cover stopped down with room for movement. maybe also consider to mount some of your lenses in barrel and use the hat or similar for a shutter

[cyberjunkie]

cant help you with much except to note that many folks feel the g-claron will cover stopped down with room for movement. maybe also consider to mount some of your lenses in barrel and use the hat or similar for a shutter

Thanks for your input.
But i am left with even more questions than before
1) I have read elsewhere that some people consider the 240mm G-Claron to be more than enough to cover the 8x10 format. Somebody even says that there is some room for movements. Nevertheless, Schneider gives a coverage of 409mm diagonal...
Normally the manufacturers are a little optimistic, not the opposite. Maybe i'm missing something, for example i don't remember for which aperture the coverage was given (full open? f/22?).

2) For my barrel lenses i have three possible choices:
- the mysterious electric shutter (as per jpg attachment to my previous post;
- an old Silens shutter, big enough but with a single "instant" speed, the only place where it could be fixed is behind the lensboard, with a hole drilled for the hose for pneumatic operation
- the Copal/Sinar shutter, i already payed for it, it is on its way and i should get it soon; nobody came forward with any help, the first info i need is about the measures of the original Sinar bellows. If by chance the front side of my De Vere bellows have the same size of the Sinar one, it would be a lot easier, i may even consider a transplant, fitting a cheap Sinar Norma front standard on the base clamp of the De Vere. With little patience it should be possible to find one for very cheap, i could find a 4x5" back of a Sinar F, with no ground glass but with the attachment for the Sinar shutter, for under 20 euros! But i'm not even sure that a Norma standard would be compatible with the shutter (i know that Sinar stuff can be easily swapped from one model to another, but AFAIK the Norma was made well before the Sinar/Copal shutter!)

I am looking for any worthy info.
If the project gets somewhere, i'll post the pictures of my would-be frankenstein view camera
Thanks in advance

have fun

CJ

[Brian Stein]

1. G-claron is quoted at f22 and is conservative
2. bellows size:
see http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=17055
and http://www.apug.org/forums/forum147/...rame-size.html

for some discussion.

[cyberjunkie]

1. G-claron is quoted at f22 and is conservative
2. bellows size:
see http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=17055
and http://www.apug.org/forums/forum147/...rame-size.html

That's what i thought, about the Claron coverage.
The more things i learn about Schneider lenses, the more i appreciate the brand.
It's not only about conservative specs, there is much more: a lot of documentation about old lenses available from their site, and enlarging and process lenses made in standard barrel sizes (at least since quite long time ago).
Thanks to that, i could find for very cheap the G-Claron 240mm and a G-Componon 210mm, both were in barrel, and both were promptly transferred in a couple of standard No. 1 shutter i had scored some time ago.
Unfortunately some post-WWII lenses weren't made that way I have two examples myself: 1) a Repro-Claron 210mm that was made in standard No. 0 shutter, but mine is in barrel and the cells thread is quite bigger 2) a nice G-Claron 355mm that is older than i thought, so the cells are a little too small for a No. 3 shutter; the pdf available online don't report the specs for the 355mm, but i guess if it could fit a Compound No. 3, that has a slightly smaller diameter. Any advice would be appreciated.


Thanks for the two links you reported.
I already found the thread on this forum, but i didn't read the APUG one.
From what i read, the external and internal dimensions of the attachment frame are the same. The only difference is the thickness of the frame, the Sinar frame is very thin (2mm), while the De Vere is a lot thicker (around 8mm).
That could be a problem, if the bellows must be directly attached to the back of the Sinar shutter... BTW, i still don't have the shutter at home, so i have to wait and see.
There is always the choice to sandwitch the shutter between two lensboards, maybe adding two thin slices of black foam, that could help in reducing the transmission of vibrations from the shutter to the camera body, keeping the junction as light-tight as possible.
If somebody has got any interest, i'll keep you informed

have fun

CJ

[Steven Tribe]

This a lot of discussion here (within the last 6 months) about sinar copal shutters mounted on other lens boards than Sinar (or combining a Sinar/other type board ) here which is, perhaps, why people are loathe to share their experience/experiments an additional time. Basically, everything is possible and people like them - solutions and mounting are very different and there is a chinese entrepreneur who supplies hardwear for "professional" conversion at around machining shop prices. The electric shutter is probably better suited as a cigar cutter or torture instrument unless you have the control box it was born with. The obvious usefulness of Sinar/Copal shutters for barrel lenses set-ups is the reason why they command a high price.

[jackpie]

I have a later De Vere, with square rail. Like Sinar the frames have the same fitting on both sides, for the bellows and the lensboards. The recess is nominally Sinar size but without the Sinar light trap, instead relying on a lining of velvet material. Sinar lensboards and bellows fit into the mounting recess on the the standards but are loose and are not secured by the De Vere locks and fall out. So Sinar parts do not fit seamlessly. In addition the later Sinar shutter has the protruding aperture control which does not fit within the U shaped frame of the De Vere standard.

So can it be made to work? I don't think it will be easy or pretty. But good luck, and I look forward to seeing your solutions.

[cyberjunkie]

I have a later De Vere, with square rail. Like Sinar the frames have the same fitting on both sides, for the bellows and the lensboards. The recess is nominally Sinar size but without the Sinar light trap, instead relying on a lining of velvet material. Sinar lensboards and bellows fit into the mounting recess on the the standards but are loose and are not secured by the De Vere locks and fall out. So Sinar parts do not fit seamlessly. In addition the later Sinar shutter has the protruding aperture control which does not fit within the U shaped frame of the De Vere standard.

From the small search about De Vere products i have made on the Web, i think that the square monorail should tell that your camera is supposedly a De Vere Devon, a totally new model made after the manufacture's premises moved to...guess where, in Devon UK!
I am posting two pictures of my camera.
Please post your thoughts if you see relevant differences.
I saw a Devon only once, in picture only of course. De Vere camera are quite rare here in Italy, most oddball brand view cameras are Fatifs!
Most of the late products made by this italian brand are quite good. I never used a recent one, those with big, round-edged lensboards, but i own an old one, with rack-and-pinion monorail: very sturdy and with nice engineering, but a little "rough in the edges".
Fatif tripods are very, very good, at least from my point of view. I happen to own one, and it's my view camera tripod-of-choice: nice for studio, and still easily trasportable (at least by car! ).

But i am digressing... nevertheless, if one of the forum members is actually using a Fatif camera, i would be happy to know how you like it.

Coming back to Sinar bellows vs. De Vere bellows, it's strange that you didn't notice that the latter has a thicker frame. Maybe your camera has a fully standardized bellows attachment, albeit without light trap, while my older camera possibly has a slightly different one. Both my bellows have the same frame, so they must be the originals, and not a replacement (standard bellows is exceptionally well mantained, given its age, but the bag bellows is quite battered, probably the camera was used with short focals most of the time!).

If you have any observation about the difference between the front standard of our cameras, if any, let me know what do you think

So can it be made to work? I don't think it will be easy or pretty. But good luck, and I look forward to seeing your solutions.

If i succeed in doing something worth sharing, i'll post a couple of pictures.

Thanks again for your collaboration

have fun

CJ

[erie patsellis]

The easiest way would be to take a couple of spare lensboards (one sinar, one to fit your camera), a shutter and a format frame (a junk F front standard would make the perfect donor, given their cost and ease of removing the format frame, a single screw).

Atttach the two lens boards together with a short lightight spacer such that the Sinar shutter retainer can slide onto the sinar board, ~1/4" (6mm) should be sufficient,ensure that you have a large enough hole in both lensboards to eliminate mechanical vignetting as well. Attach lensboard/spacer, then attach shutter, format frame and then DB lens.

Whether the standard can tolerate the leveraged weight would be an issue, as well as the total weight and whether the rise locks will support it, but that's about as simple, off the shelf and effective a way as I can think of at the moment.

[cyberjunkie]

I need urgent help about the Copal/Sinar shutter.
I just got the parcel with the second hand shutter i purchased.
The vendor was so smart to put the shutter together with the two cables. and not separate! The shutter release is quite big and heavy, and somehow during the shipment damaged the shutter. It must have compressed the shutter in a very bad way, because the screw that keeps in place the two black round thingies that are on top of the shutter selector lever got broken in half, and the lever itself got so badly bent that the aluminium foil that covers the shutter got bent as well!
Notwithstanding the small bits that got loose inside the parcel, and the obvious damage, when i placed the selector on "B" and on one of the faster speeds, i could fire the shutter twice. But when i placed the selector on one of the longer speeds (four sec i think), the shutter opened and got stuck, never closing again.
Returning the shutter would be a problem, i just payed 72 euros of taxes (!), that would be lost for good, and i would loose the shipment charge too.

So i am asking for help:
any trick to operate the shutter or uncock it in some way?
Apparently the lever got bent exactly on the 8sec. position, that's where the aluminium cover got bent towards the outside, and on the settings around there the shutter does not work. For some reason on the opposite side it is working, probably because the damage occurred when the lever was on the opposite side of its range.

Any advice?
Any italian reader who can suggest me an experienced, honest repairer?

thanks in advance

CJ