4x5 & possible 8x10 suggestions for rock-solid monorail with geared movements

[dh003i]

Right now, I'm using a Linhof Kardan Supercolor. Rock solid camera, has all of the movements (tilt, swing, shift, rise, etc) on rear and front standards. It has a slight issue with the rear standard springlock mechanism moving when I put the loupe on it; I'm gonna get it fixed by Marflex, but that has got me thinking.

Should I sell it and get a camera with geared movements?

There are many things about the camera I love. It is rock solid. The rail is relatively flat, so I did in fact tape a paper mm ruler on it to use along with f-stop tables for calculating optimal f-stop. It has all of the movements I want. It is for the most part pretty nice to use. Locks into place solidly. I'm never worried about problems with the camera (aside from the front standard issue, that I'm going to have fixed). The rail is about 379mm, so I can do macro-esque work with my 90mm and 135mm lenses; although my 300mm lens can focus no closer than 5 feet. This along with the bellows is such that I can still do tilts/swings with the 90mm focused fairly far away (so the standards are close), although it is kind of difficult due to the bellows being so compressed.

However, the downside is no geared movements. Most of what I do is swing and tilt, angular changes. I very rarely use shift or rise/fall. When using the swings and tilts, doing precise changes is difficult, because I'm manually moving the standard. It is somewhat coarse, difficult to get very fine adjustments. Especially when I'm adjusting tilts, because the camera has an automatic snap-to feature, to return the standards to the home ("0") position, and no way to disengage this.

The other thing I like is that

So if I sold it and got another one, I'd be looking for something equally solid, with geared tilts/swings (geared rise/fall & shift) would be nice too. Essential is that it either have a DOF knob like this (I'm actually confused why the f-stops are diff for 4x5 and 8x10, as from that article I linked to, it says that the same focus-spread indicates the same optimal f-stop, irrelevant of format), or a mm scale on the side (or at least be such that a mm scale could be taped on and easily used).

A few models I've seen that might fit the bill (do they all have geared standards, how long are the monorails?):

4x5 Cambo SCIIRS -- seems nice, very long (~500mm) rail, which would be great for macro; however, if the bellows are long enough to do that, I worry about even more difficulty in using my 90mm lens, for the same reasons as with my Linhof (but even moreso).

4x5 Cambo Legend -- seems like a pretty reasonable camera, and it comes with the case (which is always nice). However, how long is the rail? And I worry about the seemingly recessed front standard...are the rise/fall bars going to be visible in pictures taken with very wide angle lenses, like a 65mm?

4x5 Cambo 45 SR -- seems nice, but how long is the monorail? Geared tilt?

8x10 Cambo Legend -- probably won't get, its a huge price-class up, and it is HUGE. I currently keep my Linhof Kardan Supercolor in my trunk, along with my other gear -- so it is always with me. Don't even know how I'd transport this monster.

PS: The main reason I'm thinking about selling he Linhof is because of the absence of geared movements. But perhaps, since it seems to be pretty well-rounded and rock-slid, another alternative would be to try to modify it for more precise movements? I.e., attach some kind of handles to the standards for tilt & swing, so as to have more leverage and hence finer control?

[rdenney]

Cambos don't do short lenses really well. The offset thumbscrews for the axis tilts prevent the standards getting close together for lenses of 65mm and shorter. On my SC, 90 works fine but locks up the bellows if you attempt shifts, so you need either bag bellows or a recessed lens board.

And I think you'd find Cambos to lack the precision you are accustomed to with your Linhof. Cambos are completely competent cameras, but they are designed and made to be competent and no more.

Don't discount a Sinar P if you want geared movements. It has both axis and base tilts as well and will handle short lenses down to 47 and maybe shorter. Used P's are not that expensive. And with a Sinar in reasonable condition you won't feel as though you stepped down. No problem with being solid, and no problem with modular mixing and matching of various formats.

Rick "who doesn't mind non-geared movements if the locks don't move AT ALL when being tightened" Denney

[Joshua Dunn]

Get a Sinar P series. It does everything you want, are readily available, have every accessory you can ever need and are reasonably priced.

[dh003i]

Thanks guys, I've discarded considering the Cambos for he reasons you noted. looking at the Sinar P, it seems very nice, but a few things worry me. It has a round focusing rail, which would prevent me from taping on a mm scale for measuring focus-difference between furthest and closest point I want in focus (I use this for setting aperture). But I see what looks like an f-stop indicator on the knob, is that right? Does it follow the sqrt(375D) rule, as illustrated here?

The other issue would be that it seems to do tilts in a complex way, not revolving around the nodal point of the lens or ground glass (this is what my Linhof does, tilts and swings around the midpoint). OTOH, when I look at the animation on this page, it looks like it is maybe still tilting it about the nodal point and avoiding yaw? But that's for the P2.

I like the tilts and swings to revolve around the midpoint of the lens or ground-glass, in the sense that the midpoint remains the same distance from the lens or film.

A few other questions: How long is the monorail?

And how transportable is it? I've been putting my Linhof Kardan Supercolor in my trunk upside down, on the bars that accomodate rise. It's perfectly fine like this. It looks like the Sinar P is substantially taller than the Kardn Supercolor, so I'm wondering if it'll be as transportable as the Linhof Kardan Supercolor.

PS: Is the back of the Sinar P1 interchangeable? The link to the Sinar P2 I posted says the P2 can be switched between 4x5 and 8x10. What about the "P" or "P1" (however it is called).

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[Ken Lee]

If you don't mind sharing where you live, perhaps some forum member can show your their camera. A bird in the hand, as they say, is easier than playing "Twenty Questions".

[dh003i]

I'm in Rochester, NY. Frank Petronio showed me his Sinar more than a year ago before I bought my Linhof Kardan, but his was an 8x10 (I don't remember what model his was).

Also, back then, I hadn't used a LF before, so I wasn't looking at that much detail for those kinds of things; just more like learning the ropes.

[Ken Lee]

If you can't find one closer, I live a day's drive away, in Western Massachusetts. I have a Sinar P with 4x5 and 5x7 backs and bellows.

The Sinar P is modular. You can get long rails, short rails. You can keep plugging them into one another until the rail is 6 feet long. The same is true with bellows. Bellows can be used as lens hoods.

Have a look here at the specs, and here for the "accessories". It's a very complete system.

You can also learn by searching eBay for "Sinar". Also, look at Glennview for photos of Sinar gear.

Another great resource is Igor at Igor's Camera Exchange.

[dh003i]

Ken,

Thanks for all of the great resources!

If you can't find one closer, I live a day's drive away, in Western Massachusetts. I have a Sinar P with 4x5 and 5x7 backs and bellows.

The Sinar P is modular. You can get long rails, short rails. You can keep plugging them into one another until the rail is 6 feet long. The same is true with bellows. Bellows can be used as lens hoods.

Have a look here at the specs, and here for the "accessories". It's a very complete system.

You can also learn by searching eBay for "Sinar". Also, look at Glennview for photos of Sinar gear.

Another great resource is Igor at Igor's Camera Exchange.

[tgtaylor]

Another option to the Sinar P is the Toyo Robos. Here is the cameras specs:



The Robos is a modular and convertible camera (4x5 to 8x10) that is fully compatible with the Toyo G series so parts are readily available and are probably easier to find and cost less than Sinar parts. With the exception of front and rear swing and base tilt, all movements are geared. The bellows can be extended to infinity by simply adding extensions rails. The rails themselves are flat at the top and have a distance scale on them. Last, but not least, the camera is beautifully engineered and a pleasure to look at when set up.

Lately the Robos has been going for next to nothing. KEH had 3 just a couple of weeks ago but I checked this morning and they were gone. I bought mine from Igor a few years back in Mint+ condition with a factory fitted hard case for $700.

[dh003i]

tgtaylor,

Thanks for the suggestion...but if I understand correctly, only the focusing, rise/fall, and shift are geared?

What I have the most need for is geared tilts and swings.