Forum Growth.....or not?

[Jack Dahlgren]

I think people who like film are moving up to LF. Why stick with small format when a digicam does that better? And LF prices are CHEAP right now.

[Brian Ellis]

In the past three years I have observed the following while I was in the field photographing:

• I am encountering a lot more younger LF users.
  
• Overall, I am encountering a lot more LF users in general.
  
• More people who are not photographers now know what LF photography is then ever before.

In recent years, I have felt the digital revolution has brought growth to LF photography. More people then ever are becoming interested in photography because digital photography makes photography easier, simpler, and less technical. As some of these digital photographers mature in their discipline, they become more discriminating in their craft and move to LF photography as a means of finding a better solution to their vision. Because the population of digital photographers has been growing so is the number of people that migrate to LF photography. Hence, the growth that I have seen in the field, Kirk has observed on this site, and the increase in recent LF film sales (despite the poor economy) is consistent with my conclusions.

Just curious - where are you going that you run into all these LF users. In 15 years of using LF cameras I can only think of seeing another LF photographer in the field maybe three times (other than the ones I was with in a group of course). Also curious about your source for the statement about increases in LF film sales. I never see anything from a manufacturer or retailer that even says anything about sales of film in general much less LF film specifically. The categories in Kodak's K-1s filed with the SEC are way too broad to figure out anything about their film sales.

[lilmsmaggie]

"Pages" in Kirk's data = page views.

I think Kirk will have to validate this but the way I read it, the 22M that you are questioning refers to pages, with a separate stat for page views.

What I'm assuming here is that the number of pages on the site in June 2008
was 22,271,468. Although high, it's quite possible considering that it was two years ago. Of course it could be a typo or Kirk just read the number wrong.

The other assumption I made is that some sort of site maintenance is being performed but not consistently (2,526,898 in 2010 versus 22M+ in 2008). Essentially I'm giving the web master for the site the benefit of a doubt due to the lag time and given that the stats are taken during different times of the year (June 2008 vs. January 2010).

Lastly, spyders crawl a website looking for changes is content. They are used to index and catalog those data that have changed since the last time that particular spyder crawled the site. They just catalog changes for the search engine. I'll have to check but I really don't believe site crawls count as pages viewed.

They may contribute to site hits but not necessarily pages viewed.

[Stephen Willard]

Just curious - where are you going that you run into all these LF users. In 15 years of using LF cameras I can only think of seeing another LF photographer in the field maybe three times (other than the ones I was with in a group of course). Also curious about your source for the statement about increases in LF film sales. I never see anything from a manufacturer or retailer that even says anything about sales of film in general much less LF film specifically. The categories in Kodak's K-1s filed with the SEC are way too broad to figure out anything about their film sales.

Brian, with respect to film sales, I think Van Camper has provided you with a good answer.

The observations I was referencing in the field occurs only in the fall in Colorado when I am shooting from the road. The rest of the time, I am in the backcountry with my llamas, and in those places I have never ever seen a photographer in the remote areas I have visited for the past 12 years, except for once when I meet Art Wolf and his group back in the summer of 2005. I spent three days camping and shooting with them.

However, every fall, I always drive the 40 mile Kebler Pass road from Crested Butte Colorado where the largest stands of aspens can be found in the continental United States. The Kebler Pass drive has become a ritual for me to start my fall trip which can last 3-5 weeks. It is a real zoo, and yet loads of fun, with hundreds of photographers converging on the road from all over the country. I have been doing this for five years now, and each year I have run into ever more LF photographers. Last year I counted 47 Lfers between Kebler Pass and the Dallas Divide area near Ridgeway Colorado (I think without checking my field notes). Most of them were in their 30s or younger. The first year I started counting I encountered between 9 and 10 Lfers, and they were all retired engineers.

I do run into a hundreds of hikers each summer with my llamas, and always spend time answering their questions and of course getting photographed with my llamas more times then I can count. The surprising thing is most people know what LF photography is when I tell them what I do. When I first started doing this 12 years ago very few people ever heard of LF photography. Based on my experiences and encounters, the craft of LF photography is becoming more mainstream then most may think, and it is a growing industry.

[domaz]

Growth in Large Format probably has a lot to do with renewed interested in vintage and old lenses. Many digital photographers start by adapting old Manual Focus lens to their DSLRs (see MF forums etc..) and then realize there are still a whole slew of lenses they can't use (LF ones) so they start investigating LF. The fact that LF image quality is irrefutably better than any DSLR mere mortals can afford helps a lot too. I agree that people wanting to leave the digital herd is also a big reason for renewed intereste in film in general.

[Brian Ellis]

Brian, with respect to film sales, I think Van Camper has provided you with a good answer.

The observations I was referencing in the field occurs only in the fall in Colorado when I am shooting from the road. The rest of the time, I am in the backcountry with my llamas, and in those places I have never ever seen a photographer in the remote areas I have visited for the past 12 years, except for once when I meet Art Wolf and his group back in the summer of 2005. I spent three days camping and shooting with them.

However, every fall, I always drive the 40 mile Kebler Pass road from Crested Butte Colorado where the largest stands of aspens can be found in the continental United States. The Kebler Pass drive has become a ritual for me to start my fall trip which can last 3-5 weeks. It is a real zoo, and yet loads of fun, with hundreds of photographers converging on the road from all over the country. I have been doing this for five years now, and each year I have run into ever more LF photographers. Last year I counted 47 Lfers between Kebler Pass and the Dallas Divide area near Ridgeway Colorado (I think without checking my field notes). Most of them were in their 30s or younger. The first year I started counting I encountered between 9 and 10 Lfers, and they were all retired engineers.

I do run into a hundreds of hikers each summer with my llamas, and always spend time answering their questions and of course getting photographed with my llamas more times then I can count. The surprising thing is most people know what LF photography is when I tell them what I do. When I first started doing this 12 years ago very few people ever heard of LF photography. Based on my experiences and encounters, the craft of LF photography is becoming more mainstream then most may think, and it is a growing industry.

I've seen Van Camper's report cited many times as authority for the proposition that film sales and specifically LF film sales are increasing. His report is his interpretation of things he heard sales reps say at a photo show. As such I don't consider it particularly authoritative, especially when information from Kodak indicates that film sales continue to decline. See, for example, the following from early 2009 (the show Van Camper attended was in 2008):

"The Eastman Kodak Company said Thursday it was cutting 3,500 to 4,500 jobs, or 14 percent to 18 percent of its work force, as it posted a fourth-quarter loss of $137 million on plunging sales of both digital and film-based photography products. . . . Revenue from digital products dropped 23 percent to $1.78 billion, and traditional film-based revenue fell 27 percent to $652 million . . . http://edmund-ng.blogspot.com/2009/0...dak-trims.html

I realize that "film based revenue" encompasses revenues from a broad area and isn't limited to sales of consumer film and certainly not to LF film. It presumably includes movie film, xray film, maybe papers and chemicals, who knows exactly what all is in there. So it's conceivable that consumer film sales and/or LF film sales alone are increasing despite the overall large decrease in "film based revenue." But that seems relatively unlikely with a decline as large as 27% in one year. So as between Van Camper's interpretation of what he heard some salesmen say at a photo show and Kodak's own information about its film-based revenues, I'll go with Kodak.

As for the rest of your message, you obviously go to much different places than I do. I much prefer the places you go to. : - )

[jp]

Let's apply a little generation-X speak to it here; computer gaming. First level, have some fun with an inexpensive digital. Got that figured out? Level 2. A DSLR and lenses. Tricky but conquerable. Level 3. Need a bigger challenge; film and darkroom. Level 4; a serious challenge - Large format.

Another gaming metaphor. Some people like futuristic sci-fi games, other people like WWII or historic themed games. Digital photo challenges versus traditional film...

Like listening to music on vinyl, everything about LF is different. I'm not going to get all elitist and say LF is superior, but it's different. People are going to choose it.

I'm relatively young. I've always liked film and I have thick books of 35mm B&W negatives to prove it. Digital is so much better than 35mm for 90% of people's needs. LF gets me the digital image quality AND the good qualities of real B&W film. Double good in my book.

I think the low equipment prices are certainly attracting people to it as well. In the late '80s when I was getting into 35mm and playing with 120, LF was obscenely expensive hardware for the big budget commercial stuff or the toys of doctors and lawyers. Now you can get enlargers for transportation costs, camera kits for $100 and up, lenses for $50 and up, film holders for $10 each, etc... A whole internet full of deals, options, knowledge, troubleshooting.... We didn't have these forums, ebay, craigslist, etc...

[Marko]

Hi Ellis, I think you missed my link found on Page 2 - http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/...news-film.html

Hey Van, I remember you quoting this same article a long while ago when we had this exact same argument. That was the only "source" you were ever able to make in support of your optimism then and one would think you might have managed to eke out at least another one like that in all this time!

The reliable data is right under our noses. The new folding 6x7 Bessa camera was introduced, so was Ektar 120film....certainly not a sign things are over for even 120 film.

So, now that Polaroid is gone (hate to break the bad news, but they stopped production shortly after that report you keep quoting), what do your "reliable sources" recommend we do with our Polaroid film holders?

Perhaps they could be used for Kodak Readyloads? Or how about Fuji Quickloads? No wait, they both went belly up since then as well...

These days, the internet has further changed things....I order all my large format gear over the net.....anything you want is still available at BH, Calumet, Badger, et. Demand and supply are in equilibrium for this specialty market.

But of course, the Internet! You can find anything there, even the buggy whips! Brand new ones, did you know that they are making a resurgence too?

[lilmsmaggie]

So, now that Polaroid is gone (hate to break the bad news, but they stopped production shortly after that report you keep quoting), what do your "reliable sources" recommend we do with our Polaroid film holders?

Guess what? Polaroid is making a comeback complete with Lady Gaga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBLCgCOuc1A

[Kirk Fry]

So if LF film is doing so well, why are all the labs going out of business???
KFry