Profile Problem

[Stephen Best]

My working method to date is to open an file almost always in RGB, first in edit drop down I assign profile -Adobe 1998 . I then in edit drop down, convert to profile , at this stage I enter the type of paper I will be using,it can be a number of different papers but lets say High Cotton White, which I have profiled.

I'm not sure why you're assigning a space. This should be set by the scanner software or raw conversion. Also, be aware that printer spaces aren't gray-balanced nor linear and while you can edit in them you have to be very careful. It's something I did in the past to nail the black point and counter saturation losses from perceptual transforms but now have a better printer and colour management tools and no longer feel the need. Regardless, the conversion to a printer space is something you want to do last, then print with No Color Management (but not on a Mac with CS4 but this is another can of worms).

What you appear to want though is for Photoshop to retain some notion of the destination RGB space while you're in Lab which it won't do. You can create actions to convert to the space you want (or just set them as the default in Color Settings). Using Lab mode outside of the small gamut world that Margulis inhabits (where the monitor, working and printer spaces are all of comparable size/shape) isn't that practical ... as you're beginning to appreciate.

[Tyler Boley]

Hi Stephen

....
When I am happy with my work I then change modes to LAB to make contrast and sharpening adjustments, I may make some basic colour adjustments , but in LAB I am particularly building my image contrast, density and sharpening.** I have never checked if the High Cotton White profile is still on, which I will play with tommorow.*
...

at this point it's a total non issue, PS has no way of knowing or really caring what space or profile you previously came from, to your LAB part of the workflow. Whatever editing you are doing in LAB at this point is doing what it is doing with no regard to what space the data was previously tagged.

...
After I am happy here I change modes back to RGB and do final adjustments to the file.
When I am back in RGB this is where I notice that I have seemed to lost my profile..

yes, this is because of doing a mode change, which has nothing to do with your profile, only the working RGB space. So to change to your RGB Paper profile, from hence you cameth fortnights past... you need to do edit> convert instead of image> mode> RGB, as others here have mentioned as well.
You'll still be going to RGB, since that is the mode your printer profile is, but the RGB you wanted.
The steps you are taking result in the slight visual shift, because they involve another "assignment", which tells Photoshop to display the data differently.

The only way to have PS "track" (or seam to) these mode changes is to have your paper profile selected as your working space so any mode change goes to it, instead of a working space, as Francisco mentioned, but this would not be recommended for a variety of reasons, one of which is that you have several RGB paper profiles and would constantly have to change the setting to accomidate.
If I do have my head around your dilemma, I really think the solution is to accept the fact that PS, after any profile or mode conversion, retains no memory of where it came from to utilize in future conversion "back" or whatever, and make that one change, at the LAB to RGB change, using edit> convert to profile> your paper profile, rather than a simple mode conversion, and all should be well.
Maybe?
Tyler

[Joanna Carter]

Can I start by asking what is the source of the file?

When working on a file I first assign adobe 1998 , then I convert to profile ie High Cotton White.

Why do you bother to assign a profile only to convert to another? You should only assign a profile when doing something like correcting the colours to match a source for which you have a profile like a scanner.

Also, I would ask why you are using, what looks like, the profile for a paper as your working profile? Yoiu should only be using the paper profile for proofing, by adjusting the Proof Setup on the View menu.

At the start I am in RGB but for various reasons**please I have my reasons** I switch mode to LAB. In LAB I do my work and then go back to RGB for final adjustments and printing on my Lambda.

My working space is ProPhotoRGB; I have just switched to LAB mode and back again. The result is that the profile of the file changed to the LAB profile, then back again to ProPhotoRGB.

I have noticed that I lose my settings with this mode change and basically I go back and assign adobe 1998 and convert to my high cotton white. what perplexes me is I always get a slight contrast/colour shift when I do this.

What is causing the colour shift is more than likely the business of both assigning and then converting, again, to another profile. Basically, you started out by converting to your "paper" profile, which you shouldn't be doing; then you assign back to the AdobeRGB before converting again!!!

Am I missing something very basic here?
Is there a way for the profiles to stay intact with mode changes?

Yes, stop trying to use a "paper" profile whilst working on the file, only use it for proofing via the View|Proof Setup menu.

Assigning a profile does not alter the file in any way, it simply affects the way you see the image on screen. Re-assigning a profile will always cause a visual change, whereas converting will not affect what you se but does change the file.

[bob carnie]

This makes sense, now what happens when I then change mode to RGB?
I am going to work on this today but the last step is where I seem to be losing the profile. Is it a simple fact that I have to live with the convert to High Paper White each time I change modes?

When you are in LAB mode there won´t be a profile assigned, so what I suggest is to directly convert to your desired profile (High Cotton White) instead of change mode from LAB to RGB,

So in your workflow, from Adobe RGB > convert to High Paper White > adjust > change mode to LAB > adjust > convert to High Paper White (instead of change mode to RGB)

This way you don´t have to be worried what your default settings are.

[bob carnie]

I convert to profile for the very simple reason that as I am making adjustments to any file , I want to see the actual final result while doing so. If I apply the profile at the end stage basically all my edits are blind** unless I am missing something here**, the type of original does not matter, phase capture, cannon/nikon capture, scan from various scanners. They all drop the profile during mode change.
I am now thinking that I will have to convert to profile in each mode as some suggest.

I should say that this is not causing me problems with my printing, as I am getting first run dead nut monitor to final print results on all my papers. * currently we have around 15 different stocks we work with on any given day*
If I do not apply the High cotton white at the beginning stage and end stage my results fluctuate and I do not get great results.
I do understand the colour gamut issues between the different modes , but my changes are generally from rgb - lab*much larger space* and back therefore I am not afraid of loss due to gamut restrictions.
If I was going from rgb - cmyk then it would be another issue , as I may be affecting some colours by going into a smaller space.
Creating an action to convert to profile should not be an issue each time I change modes, I was just perplexed why this happened and wondered if anyone else here saw this as a problem and knew a quick answer.

for me it has been convert back to profile at the last stage, see the change and adjust. This usually is a contrast change which Stephen explained.
Most of my Lab work is contrast, density and sharpening work so I have not seen a critical failing or change in colour.
I assume I am seeing a bit of the reverse, contrast density change when this happens.

To me a profile is:

A guide to what the colour gamut and contrast of any paticular paper will exhibit.
It shows me the what will happen to different colours when paper stocks are used.
As well it allows me to work on a file at the beginning stage ** not the end stage, as suggested above** with the confidence that what I am seeing on screen will be as close to accurate as possible.

By applying a profile at the end stage I believe one is working blind to the paticular nuaunces of paper being used while editing. Without seeing actual predictable colour and contrast how in the world does one do any degree of dead nuts colour match.
If someone here can explain how applying a profile at the very last stage and then not re edit and still make a great first test , I am all ears .


Now I may be wrong with my assumptions but my daily workflow tells me that having a profile attached while editing is the way to go. Without it I think I am working blind.

I probably am old school that I want to see a test print before any final prints are made , but to me this is a step that we do on all work and over the last couple of years I have seen enough file - print to appreciate a test print.

Years ago , I worked at a few very large wedding lab. The single most defining area was the VCNA workstation which was used to edit each negative to a good starting balance. Each printer needed to run a calibration and then when balanced one was able to edit and print out a paticular set of numbers that showed the current negative 's devience from normal. By applying this number to a translator and then nulling the enlarger to nuetral for colour and density we were able to get very good first tests to work from.

Thirty years latter I am seeing basically the exact same thing except in my case the profile I have made for a paticular paper and chem's/inks sets now replaces the VCNA machine. I still have to apply this profile while editing the image to expect good reproductions when using various material.

I hope I am not boring the crap out of you all, but all of these questions are related to those who are printing onto various papers and need to have very good first test prints that mimic what is seen on the monitor.

-am I to assume that Yes PS cannot hold onto a profile with Mode changes?
-if it can is it by creating actions to do so when changing modes?
-should I get over it and just keep on doing what I do ?
-will adding a profile as a very last step give me the results I desire?*monitor-print accuracy*
- if so would someone please explain in detail how this would work.

[Francisco Disilvestro]

Profiles are related to a color space, so when you convert from LAB to High Paper White the result will be in RGB. No need to change mode to RGB, it already is in RGB.

Change mode to RBG is the same as Convert to defalut RGB working profile.

[Joanna Carter]

I convert to profile for the very simple reason that as I am making adjustments to any file , I want to see the actual final result while doing so. If I apply the profile at the end stage basically all my edits are blind** unless I am missing something here**

Yes, you are missing something here. You are not meant to assign or convert your image to the print profile. You should be working in a wide gamut profile like ProPhotoRGB or, at least, AdobeRGB. Use the Proofing Setup to allow you to see how the final print profile will affect the image.

the type of original does not matter, phase capture, cannon/nikon capture, scan from various scanners. They all drop the profile during mode change.
I am now thinking that I will have to convert to profile in each mode as some suggest.

Your workflow for a camera should be to convert from the camera profile to something like ProPhotoRGB and work on the image, converting to and from LAB mode as necessary, but using the Proofing Setup to apply the printing profile.

Scanning is similar but, usually, you assign the scanner profile after opening the image in Photoshop but prior to converting to ProPhotoRGB. Then you must not convert to your printer profile, simply set the Proofing View.

If I do not apply the High cotton white at the beginning stage and end stage my results fluctuate and I do not get great results.

You are getting fluctuating results on printing because you need to proof and print using a separate profile for each paper.

I do understand the colour gamut issues between the different modes , but my changes are generally from rgb - lab*much larger space* and back therefore I am not afraid of loss due to gamut restrictions.

Which is why I suggest using PRoPhotoRGB as your default working profile, it is also a much wider gamut.

for me it has been convert back to profile at the last stage, see the change and adjust. This usually is a contrast change which Stephen explained.

It is not converting to a profile that causes the contrast change, it is assigning a profile that causes the visual change but does not change the file.

To me a profile is:

A guide to what the colour gamut and contrast of any paticular paper will exhibit.
It shows me the what will happen to different colours when paper stocks are used.
As well it allows me to work on a file at the beginning stage ** not the end stage, as suggested above** with the confidence that what I am seeing on screen will be as close to accurate as possible.

By applying a profile at the end stage I believe one is working blind to the paticular nuaunces of paper being used while editing. Without seeing actual predictable colour and contrast how in the world does one do any degree of dead nuts colour match.
If someone here can explain how applying a profile at the very last stage and then not re edit and still make a great first test , I am all ears .

Then you need to listen to what is being said

Definitive workflow; try this at least once before you do anything else and let us know what happens:

1. Set your default working colour space to ProPhotoRGB

2. Use Image RAW to open an image from your camera.

3. If the import didn't convert to ProPhotoRGB, Convert to ProPhotoRGB.

4. On the View menu, choose Proof Setup|Custom… and choose your paper profile.

5. On the View menu select the Proof Colors menu item ticked

6. Make any edits that you don't want to do in LAB mode.

7. Convert to LAB mode.

8. Make any edits in LAB mode.

9. Convert back to RGB mode (the profile should, once more, be ProPhotoRGB.

10. When you are satisfied with your image, Print it ensuring that the Print dialog shows the Color Handling as "Photoshop Manages Colors" and select your printer profile.

[bob carnie]

I just tried that and you are right, went right back into rgb

Profiles are related to a color space, so when you convert from LAB to High Paper White the result will be in RGB. No need to change mode to RGB, it already is in RGB.

Change mode to RBG is the same as Convert to defalut RGB working profile.

[bob carnie]

I will give this a go , generally I am working from supplied files or scanned negatives so I will do this with a scanned negative.
I will report back

Yes, you are missing something here. You are not meant to assign or convert your image to the print profile. You should be working in a wide gamut profile like ProPhotoRGB or, at least, AdobeRGB. Use the Proofing Setup to allow you to see how the final print profile will affect the image.


Your workflow for a camera should be to convert from the camera profile to something like ProPhotoRGB and work on the image, converting to and from LAB mode as necessary, but using the Proofing Setup to apply the printing profile.

Scanning is similar but, usually, you assign the scanner profile after opening the image in Photoshop but prior to converting to ProPhotoRGB. Then you must not convert to your printer profile, simply set the Proofing View.


You are getting fluctuating results on printing because you need to proof and print using a separate profile for each paper.


Which is why I suggest using PRoPhotoRGB as your default working profile, it is also a much wider gamut.


It is not converting to a profile that causes the contrast change, it is assigning a profile that causes the visual change but does not change the file.


Then you need to listen to what is being said

Definitive workflow; try this at least once before you do anything else and let us know what happens:

1. Set your default working colour space to ProPhotoRGB

2. Use Image RAW to open an image from your camera.

3. If the import didn't convert to ProPhotoRGB, Convert to ProPhotoRGB.

4. On the View menu, choose Proof Setup|Custom… and choose your paper profile.

5. On the View menu select the Proof Colors menu item ticked

6. Make any edits that you don't want to do in LAB mode.

7. Convert to LAB mode.

8. Make any edits in LAB mode.

9. Convert back to RGB mode (the profile should, once more, be ProPhotoRGB.

10. When you are satisfied with your image, Print it ensuring that the Print dialog shows the Color Handling as "Photoshop Manages Colors" and select your printer profile.

[Joanna Carter]

I will give this a go , generally I am working from supplied files or scanned negatives so I will do this with a scanned negative.
I will report back

In that case, instead of stages 2 & 3, do this instead :

2. As long as your default working profile is set to ProPhotoRGB, simply scan your neg into Photoshop and check that the profile of the image is set to ProPhotoRGB. You can't use scanner profiles for colour negs, only transparencies, so don't try to do anything other than convert to ProPhotoRGB.

3. However, if you are scanning a transparency, you should assign the relevant scanner profile to the image before converting to the ProPhotoRGB profile.

Don't forget to setup the Proofing on the View menu