B&H - So much smarter than Photog's Formulary (NOT!)

[poco]

It's a pretty arrogant thing to accuse someone of inventing slights,

It's even more arrogant to accuse someone of lying, as you did by dismissing ghost's explanation that he was unaware of any B&H/Jewish connection.

There's a lots of us who don't know or care whether others are Jewish or not. Deal with it.

[Jim Graves]

Your second paragraph includes the same sort of unconscious or veiled anti-Semitism that lurks in the background too often when B&H is the subject of a post.

You have GOT to be kidding me!

[William McEwen]

The fact that someone chooses to make a public issue of an error on a page is an incredible waste of time and bandwidth.
Tom Keenan

I'm the "someone" you refer to. A public issue? No. I was just sharing something I found amusing.

[Doremus Scudder]

I'll contribute again here, just to clarify (not defend) my position.

I abhor racism and unfounded bias of all kinds. I realize that there is a dark history of racism and Antisemitism worldwide, including in the United States, and that much of the discrimination and slurring is done through innuendo, ambiguous slights, and "insider" insults that are often "opaque" to the unitiated. Assaults of this type, which are intentional, should be identified as such and dealt with severely.

I am also aware that many well-intentioned and innocent comments can be offensive to certain groups since they unconsciously propagate stereotypes and/or prejudices. These latter fall into a middle ground of insensitivity and inconsiderateness and, while I, too, find them unfortunate, I fail to find malicious intent therein. In this case awareness-raising and education are the answer.

Blending into the other side of the spectrum are the heightened sensitivities of those who are the target of racism and prejudice to perceived slurs and insults. While people are justified in pointing out, confronting and decrying racial and ethnic affronts, and while I agree that this should and must be done, there sometimes exists an over-sensitivity, which, unfortunately, all too often results in cries of racism or prejudice when none exists at all. This can be damaging and hurtful to those unjustly accused, as well as injuring the cause of justice and the fight against prejudice and racism by raising false alarms and thereby inuring many to the justice of the cause.

If we believe that accusations should not be made without justification and probable cause, we should be cautious about jumping to conclusions. In a large number of cases, we need to be aware that our own oversensitivity can cause us to overreact and perpetrate the very thing we are combating. If there is no discernible malicious intent, we will often have to hold our peace, give someone the benefit of the doubt, or take another approach rather than crying "racism" when questionable comments are made.

Pointing out that something may be considered offensive to some, or that it possibly demonstrates insensitivity to a negative stereotype (which the commenter might not even be aware exists) is a far different, and much more constructive and tolerant, recourse than immediately branding someone's comment as racist or Antisemitic.

In the particular comment in question, I find no hint of Antisemitism; neither do many others. If, however, someone does, the proper, and indeed, more tolerant, embracing and reconciliatory response would simply be to point out that the comment could be misconstrued by some, and that the poster should be aware of that. The great majority of people would react positively to such edification. Unfortunately, the response that mentioned Antisemitism was too aggressive and a lashing out at the perceived slur and contained no attempt at education, justification, or cooperation. Most people do not react favorably to unjustified attacks.

Unfortunately, there are those on both sides who simply see enemies wherever they turn. Their opinions are equally unconsidered and based in mistrust, falsehood and knee-jerk defensive reactionism.

It was my intention in my original response to point out to the person who took offense that, quite possibly, his reaction was unconsidered, unhelpful, and unconstructive. I had hoped that a short retraction/apology would simply negate the comment and remove the unneeded and unpleasant specter of ethnic and religious strife from an otherwise harmless thread. It seems only to have escalated, and, quite regrettably, resulted in more unpleasantness, largely from the side of those who could have avoided it all by simply giving someone the benefit of the doubt, being a little charitable or diplomatic, or more gently rebuking the perceived slight in the spirit of conciliation rather than confrontation.

How in the hell are we ever going to live together if we cannot be civil and abide by the values we ourselves wish to have applied to us?

Enough,

Doremus Scudder

[Peter De Smidt]

Very good post, Doremus!

[Doug Howk]

Doremus, very good post. However, in a climate of racial, ethnic & religious bigotry with increasing acts of violence towards "them", we need to be aware that seemingly innocent jokes or light-hearted comments can add to the climate of hatred. I don't recognize bias; but I'm one of those "innocent" white, anglo-saxon males that purveyors of bigotry in America, such as Rush, target for recruitment to their cause. For those who are a target of bigotry, their sensitivity may seem overly heightened; but that's not for me to judge given our poor track record in America's history.

[Doremus Scudder]

Doug,

That is precisely what I am trying to say, in a seemingly more verbose way. All I am hoping is that the same consideration for others' sensitivities can be had from all involved.

One thing you imply, however, I do not agree with. For me, the entire concept of collective guilt is fallacious. Just because you are an "innocent" white, anglo-saxon male does not make you responsible for the acts of others in that group, nor should it allow others to make unfounded presumptions about your character, preferences, political or religious views, etc. based solely on that. That is precisely the kind of stereotyping that gets us into trouble in the first place. I am advocating that exactly this be guarded against by thinking people on all sides of sensitive issues.

And, I don't include myself (and I think you should not either) in the nameless, amorphous "we" that you invoke, who have such a bad track record. I certainly don't, and I'm not about to accept responsibility or liability for others in my ethic, racial, or cultural group who are guilty. I will be in the forefront of those condemning reprehensible actions, but you'll hear no "mea culpa" from me unless I am the guilty party myself. Let those who perpetrate wrong on others take the blame and the responsibility. I'll not share it with them without having participated.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

[Doug Howk]

Doremus, your reasoning is well-grounded; and in the past I would have totally agreed with you. However, we as a society, as an association of people with good intentions and unbiased viewpoints, can not remain silent when we hear hateful speech ( whether as jokes, asides, innuendos or outright bile). A couple of recent NY times editorials have argued this point better than I ( see Charles Blow and Frank Rich ). It is not some collective guilt over America's sorry history on tolerance that motivates me to speak out; but rather the fear that the recent spate of violence in America is an undercurrent that could drown us all.

[John Kasaian]

Good grief!

I am well aware that B and H is operated by Jews because they are closed for Jewish holidays and good for them! I find that simple truth quite reassuring as I dislike people who hide their beliefs.

Anyone who wouldn't know this simply isn't paying attention to B and H's website and for some reason I'd expect that anyone involved in LF photography is to some extent attentive to details (I mean if you can focus on a subject that's upside down and backwards then reading the store hours on a web page should be a piece of cake)

I have never had any complaints with B and H and if I did, I'd expect the issue to be quickly and fairly resolved because they are a very professional outfit IMHO.

As for Formulary contact printers, I've had one and mine was definately mil-spec. Vaughn's coments about jumping when the springs snap closed as oh so true!
On my cramped baseboard it was just to difficult (and painful) for me to work with. Even my preferred tool----a simple big thick honkin piece of heavy glass became dicey as I'd have to tilt it up against a slick tile back splash to remove the paper and I'd had enough close calls to warrant using a hinged Printfile proofer for 8x10 and smaller(which I've found works admirably well.)

Yes, I order stuff from Formulary, B and H, Freestyle, and Badger Graphic. I'll support them all as long as they continue to stock what I want.

[Daniel_Buck]

The people who buy product for B&H are very knowledgeable about the products they buy. But some of the people who actually put the images and the text on the web site and catalogs are not particularly knowledgeable about photography (some are). They are writers or graphics people, so they do make mistakes.

could very well be that the person putting the images into the website isn't even a writer or web guy, it may be an intern (unpaid, or little paid), since it's a fairly remedial task.