Sinar or not Sinar...

[Ellis Vener]

About seven years ago I migrated from a Sinar C to an Arca-Swiss F-line. The Sinar C has the rear standard of the top ofthe line P camera (now the P2 and the front standard ofthe F cameras. I do the same kind of work you describe that you'll be doing and i needed a camera that was more portable.

To start off with: the Sinar F cameras are nowhere near the camera the Sinar P, X and C cameras are, not even in the same league IMHO, but many architectural photographers I know use them with varying degrees of happiness. I don't know of any studio based photographer who is happy with the Sinar f cameras for studio shooting, especially for product work: the camera really isn't designed for the long haul of product photography.

The weakest aspects of the F cameras are (in my experience) the rise mechanism, the combination of shift, swing and tilt mechanisms, the unnecessarily tall tripod block, and the need the need to refocus after using rise or fall on the front or rear standards, and it is bulky to take out into the field without completely disassembling it Also at some point in the next few years you'll be considering getting a digital back and it really will not physically support support one of those.

Strong points of the Sinar F cameras: it gets you into the Sinar system; it is a yaw free design; the depth of field calculator; lots of used accessories in the USA market.

If you really want a Sinar F series camera get an F2, the F1 or the older models of the F won't be worth your aggravation. I say this because I tried. even better would be a Sinar C or C2 if you can find one or the Sinar X.

Several people here have already mentioned the Arca Swiss F cameras. before I start, I need to mention that i did some paid consultancy work for Arca Swiss earlier this year, during which I rewrote the manual for the Arca-Swiss Monoball tripod heads.

I choose the Arca-Swiss F for several reasons: I like yaw free base tilt cameras, especially for architectural and studio work; the Arca Swiss F cameras are designed so that when you usethe rise/fall movements you do not need to refocus the camera-- the lens board and the film plane remain in the same plane they already were in, the ergonomics of the camera: the location of the controls and the overall feel of the camera; a very fine quality fresnel screen is built into the groundglass assembly (with all Sinars the fresnel is a detachable accessory); the proximity of the mass of the camera body to the tripod head; that the camera is much less bulky than a Sinar F, while having the stability and strength of the heavier 9and even bulkier) Sinar C cameras; it is easier to use with ultra wide angle lenses (lenses65mm and shorter) and that like the Sinar family of cameras it is a modular design that is basically infinitely expandable or contractable -- in several ways it is even more exandable: you can convert a 4x5 Arca-Swiss F-line into an 8x10 camera in about a minute and a half, or you can convert it to a 6x9cm camera in about a minute (of course you can always use a roll film back in the 4x5 configuration as well. Andthe Arca_Swiss binocular reflex viewer is the best I 've ever used, including Sinar's.

Weaknesses of the Arca-Swiss F-line cameras: Arca-Swiss is a much smaller company, what this means to you is that the distribution channels are not as robust. I have never had a problem with Arca-Swiss service, but I may be more patient than other people-- sometimes; and the lack of a bail on the groundglass mechanism.

The Linhof Technikardan TK45s is also a fine camera and bears consideration too.

Good luck!

[Mike Mahoney]

Paulo - add my name to the list of happy Arca Swiss owners, in my case the Discovery, which I use as an all around camera. You have lots of movements, and when in the field you'll appreciate the provided case, which is quite adequate for shorter hikes of less than 10kms. For longer hikes, you can fold the standards sideways with a bag bellows and lens on and fit the camera and usual accessories in a Lowepro PhotoTrekker sized backpack. All movements and controls are solid, nicely damped, and have that feeling you get that only comes from quality design and manufacture. I looked long and hard at both new and used Sinar F's, and decided on the Discovery - Robert White is the man to talk to when you make up your mind. Happy deciding!

[ed kang]

A used Sinar F + lens and a few accessories costs $600-800.

An arca swiss discovery still costs $1200+ without anything but the standards, rail and bellows.

If anyone finds me an arca swiss discovery for $600.00, I'll be happy to buy it off of them.

[Ellis Vener]

Edward Kang have you looked at the base price for a new Sinar F1 or F2 lately? if you are going to price compare, be fair.

[ed kang]

Hi Ellis,

I have looked at the prices for new F1's and F2's. They are expensive also. However, not everyone who has a fledgling interest in large format is naive (or rich enough to invest in brand new $2000.00+ equipment at the start.

In turn, most new large format enthusiasts (such as I!) have looked into the used market. This is where the comparisons between used Arca Swiss and used Sinar equipment come into play. Used Sinar F's (and the F's are still very competent large format cameras) are readily available and extremely cheap. Unfortunately, looking around, used Arca Swiss Discovery cameras are non-existent (or if they are used, they still go for new price+more for the lenses and extras).

Therefore, it is fair to compare used Sinar F's (which are mostly 15-20 years old) to new Arca Swiss Discoveries, because they both have fairly similar stability and functionality - except the used Sinar F's go for about half the price and that usually includes the cost of lenses and other accessories.

If one were to make the argument that Paulo had enough money to spend on brand new, high-dollar large format equipment, then I wonder why he didn't say how much he had to spend. $2000+? Why not skip the discovery and get a new F-line? $3000+? You could stretch a little and go for the Sinar X. $4000+? Now you're in P2 or Monolith territory.

Paulo made a mess of this thread to begin with, mostly because he didn't state how much money he was able to spend. He asks if Sinar F's are ok, but Sinar F's haven't been made since 1985 or so. He says that he's been doing perspective correction in computer software so that means that his architectural photography interests are amateur at best.

Therefore, it seems a little odd to me that no-one else seemed to recognize the alternative of cheaper, older, used equipment (especially when Paulo, in the beginning, was asking about the Sinar F, and not the F1, or even specifically F2, since there is a significant difference between those three cameras, in price and features).

At least nobody went out and recommended the crown graphic

The Arca Swiss Discovery is, in my opinion, a better camera than the Sinar F1, but it lacks the polish of the F-line which costs a couple of hundred more, and it still doesn't have the amount of US support that Sinar provides, which is a really big stickler.

And, ultimately, if Paulo is talking about whether a Sinar F is a good camera, then it's obvious that he may be in a situation where the Sinar F (a used camera) is the only thing he can afford, and that means the difference between buying a camera and not having a camera, and that's a big difference indeed.

The internet sucks in this respect.

[neil poulsen]

Yet another vote for the Arca-Swiss. I like as an excellent all-around camera. But, it's especially good for architecture. You can shoot either 4x5 or 6x9 with the appropriate back. If you order new, consider skipping the normal bellows and get the leather wide-angle and the long 700mm bellows. The wide-angle bellows works for lenses between 65mm (w/recessed board) up to 180mm or 210mm. The 700mm bellows easily accomodates lenses larger than 210mm.

Also consider getting the reducer lensboard from Arca-Swiss 4x5 front to Arca-Swicc 6x9 front. Hopefully, this will be recessed. Norman McGrath, the well know architectural photographer had a Sinar F for years. He switched to Arca-Swiss and loves it.

[Paulo Ogino]

Hey guys! There's no need to get in to fight!!! Yes, maybe I've made a controversial question, since I haven't mentioned the most near alternatives to a Sinar for comparison. I've checked the Arca Swiss, the Toyo View, and a lot more. I've checked many web sites and many forums, and my question is allways the same: Sinar or not Sinar?.

Here are the main issues that make my choices very difficult, and may help you to help me:

- I live in Chile, SouthAmerica. That means if I can find a good used 4x5 camera in Chile, I would have to "sell my body to the night" for a month (at least) to pay for it. - Since I don't live in the US, UK or AU (or anywherelse), I only can buy online. Not all the online camera stores accept my credit cards (sh**t, that's frustrating!!!) - The few sites where I can buy, they offer mostly field cameras, linhof kardan and its similars, sinars, old view cameras and the new models of the mostly common brands($$$). - I'm allways low in budget. That doesn't stop me on going again and again on photography. Like Jazz, Photo is a passion (and a lover) that allways asks for more. - If I had money, I would move digital. If I had MONEY, I would buy a digital back, guys, plug it to my Sun Ultra (or an SGI O2)and do magic! (if I had money I wouldn't go PC or MAC) - My choice would be almost definitive, I marry one system, and then we'll be together a long time (until we get divorced) - For architectural, I have to work at low resolutions (2000 dpi), but that's enough for small printing. - The Sinar has been the most available for my budget, but I need to be very sure before moving to 4x5. I still prefer film over digital, since for me to go digital is TO GO DIGITAL($$$). - As an architect, I allways have the need to capture spaces, form and light, and large format IS the medium.

Well, if anyone needs to know more, please let me know. And thank you very much guys, I've received a lot of feedback, and that makes me feel I'm not alone in this world!!!!

[Struan Gray]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll just put in my usual plug for the Sinar Norma. These are relatively cheap on the used market, have excellent precise movements, and are compatible with current Sinar accessories. The only rental gear in my part of the world is Sinar, so that helps too.

The movements are not geared, and the design is not yaw free, but otherwise it's a lot a camera for the money.

[dan nguyen]

Paulo... It was my situation years ago.... I only had a Sinar A1... and want to buy a field... well...after lots of thinking.... I put my $$ into lenses and the Sinar do both works...studio and field... Sure.. it lacks something on both side... but it did the job with satisfaction...Of course if you afford both...then go for it... but then you must follow up both with all kind of accessories...good luck...