Howtek 4500-Questions-Software, Comparisons, Etc.

[Lenny Eiger]

I don't know about you but I regularly visit public and private galleries plus look at the work of the best photographers/printers in the country (mostly working in traditional/alternative media). I set my own standards, not against those posturing on the 'net.

Stephen, I have a lot of experience. Over 40 years in Photography - I have a masters degree from Pratt Institute in NYC and I studied the History of Photography extensively. I also taught there for many years, at Parsons, Cooper Union, New School, etc. In addition to museums, I used to go to the auction houses the day before an auction and look at vintage prints. I got to see a lot of very wonderful things. Of course, I like very little that I see in galleries these days. Mostly post-modernism, which rubs me the wrong way, or other content-less photography with some notable exceptions.

Here's a question: If one day someone comes in your office with a set of Walker Evans's negatives and asks you to do a portfolio, are you going to do it on a 750?

Lenny

[Stephen Best]

Here's a question: If one day someone comes in your office with a set of Walker Evans's negatives and asks you to do a portfolio, are you going to do it on a 750?

As I said, I don't have a V750, nor have plans of getting one. To answer your question, I'd use what I had but, if I thought the client demanded different than I knew I could achieve, tell them to go elsewhere. While I welcome the challenge of giving the best possible results from great originals, I however tend to spend more time educating clients so as to raise their expectations and improve the quality of their originals. I doubt this is different to how you do business. But I stand more on results (exhibitions I've done etc) that the specifications of the equipment I use.

[Lenny Eiger]

I agree with a lot of what you say - it's true that I do my best to help people get the best results they can on their film before they get to me. However, I approach things a little differently than many companies in this trade. I have made it a point to acquire the finest equipment and test all the top materials. I have positioned myself to get the account for a Walker Evans portfolio, or similar work, should it come my way. It isn't a businessman's perspective, its the way an artist looks at things. I don't think its very smart, a little more bread-and-butter work in the mix would be smarter, but its the way i am wired.

I also agree that specifications are meaningless, I have tested everything that I use and gathered every bit of knowledge I could from my colleagues. I would never buy a scanner based on what a manufacturer said about it.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

I agree with most of what Lenny says, but I also believe that you do not need the best scanner (Premier) unless your printing extremely big and push the scanners numbers. There are a range of pro class scanners that give great results....
Don't get caught up believing only a drum scanner is good enough.

Van,
I think film scanners are pretty good. I don't think that a drum scanner is the only way to go. I think if one has the opportunity to pick one up, that's great. A Premier is obviously a huge luxury. However, if one wants to get as much as possible out of smaller negs, it fits the bill. It's not something to be scared of or avoid.

The issue for me is - what's the truth about this quality stuff. I think its important to be as informed as possible. A consumer level scanner is not "great", it's ok, and it may suffice for what someone needs at a particular time. A film scanner and/or professional flatbed is better and a drum is better than that. I've had lenses that were superb and others that weren't. The drum scans will give better quality. Not everyone wants a 12" Sironar-S, is willing to pay for it, or is willing to carry it around.

The issue is not one thing is bad and one is good. B&W inks are clearly better for black and white prints. If someone wants more b&w out of their printer than they are getting, then there is an option they can try. If someone wants a sharper film original, then there is something they can do. Same with a scan. It's a hierarchy of need and solutions to fit that need.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

Your low values you gave the IQ2/3 (3175ppi) are not reasonable (I'd like to see the source). Many of us in here know what a quality print is, have had drum scans done and made their own comparisons, but a Howtek 4500 is not the cats meow when several pro flatbeds WILL outperform it (Cezanne, Creo, Eversmart Supreme). The only issue is affordability.

Van,
With all due respect, I don't think you are correct. Obviously, our sources tell us different info. I had a 4500 and it was amazing with large format negs. I had a chance to look at a number of scans from the Cezanne and they weren't as good as I had expected (and did not compare to my 4500 scans or the same size film). There is the issue of optical resolution and there is also the business of a PMT and its abilities vs a CCD. I also don't believe its more convenient. I don't think we are going to solve this without a high level of independent testing, which doesn't exist, so I hope its ok with you if I disagree.

Lenny

[sanking]

Lenny,

Just curious. You cite sources. Care to divulge who they are?

By that I mean, where can I see the data from these sources?

I am just a bit curious. You sent a message recently to the Scan Hi-End group, Where's that Comparison" asking for comparison data on the Epson V750 and a 4500 drum scanner. Frankly, if you are that curious why not just do the tests yourself? Really not that difficult you know! In fact, given the considerable authority with which you speak on this subject I would have thought you would have already made the tests yourself rather than be looking around for 3rd party validation of your opinions?

Sandy King

Van,
With all due respect, I don't think you are correct. Obviously, our sources tell us different info. I had a 4500 and it was amazing with large format negs. I had a chance to look at a number of scans from the Cezanne and they weren't as good as I had expected (and did not compare to my 4500 scans or the same size film). There is the issue of optical resolution and there is also the business of a PMT and its abilities vs a CCD. I also don't believe its more convenient. I don't think we are going to solve this without a high level of independent testing, which doesn't exist, so I hope its ok with you if I disagree.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny,
I am just a bit curious. You sent a message recently to the Scan Hi-End group, Where's that Comparison" asking for comparison data on the Epson V750 and a 4500 drum scanner. Frankly, if you are that curious why not just do the tests yourself? Really not that difficult you know! In fact, given the considerable authority with which you speak on this subject I would have thought you would have already made the tests yourself rather than be looking around for 3rd party validation of your opinions?

Sandy King

I posted a comparison of the 4500 and a 750 just recently. I have made these tests myself, I've used both of these scanners. I test all the time, but my focus is not to test the usability of scanners. After my round of testing I settled on one that I like... I am also more interested in getting my software, film and b&w inksets to do what I want. That doesn't mean that I will write it up in an article for publication. Like many others I have a tough time with this economy, and have to focus on work, rather than testing.

I am certainly open to being wrong about anything, I welcome it. However, I am careful to state something only what I am confident I "know" vs "suspect" (unless its clearly identified that way) as people will spend money based on what gets said here. People get to gauge my level of experience, and every one that's participating in a discussion, and make up their minds for themselves.

I am sorry if what I have concluded after my experiences with these tools is different than yours. You also speak with authority and I have nothing but respect for your life-long experience. I see no reason to question your motives, or your personal integrity. I think you should extend me the same courtesy.

Lenny

[Tyler Boley]

...A Howtek4500 is a great choice if you don't mind a mounting station and 1 hr scans....

Van, I have used a 4500 for years, not sure I've ever had a scan take an hour... maybe the rare huge piece of film at full res? So, what does this refer as a characterization of 4500 general behavior? I realize other models may be faster, but...
Tyler

[sanking]

You appear to have a real raw nerve. I am not aware of saying anything that questions your personal integrity, or motives for that matter. I do respect your knowledge, in general, but when you make claims comparing one scanner to another I expect some evidence, not just affirmations.

Saying that does not mean that I question either your motives or integrity. What I question is the validity and professionalism of some of your advice. I also find that you make a lot of statements that are not based on your own testing, which was the reason for the past message. For example, have you ever compared a Howtek 4500 or 6500 to an EverSmart Supreme or to an IQSmart3 scanner? My understanding is that you have not, yet in message on another thread I saw that you referred to the EverSmart Supreme as a "mediocre" scanner. I am interested to know if that opinion is based on your own personal comparison of the Howteks with the EverSmart Supreme, or if it comes from another source. That is a simple question, not a statement that should question your integrity.

I make no attempt to speak with authority on these matters. However, whenever I have offered information comparing one scanner to another the information has been offered as a result of my own personal testing, or of testing that I have carried out in collaboration with someone else. For example, on the Hybrid forum earlier this year I posted some files that compared scans of the same color negative made with a Howtek 4500, 6500 and an EverSmart Pro. I offered an opinion, but the reference data is there for others to see and evaluate for themselves.



Sandy King

I am sorry if what I have concluded after my experiences with these tools is different than yours. You also speak with authority and I have nothing but respect for your life-long experience. I see no reason to question your motives, or your personal integrity. I think you should extend me the same courtesy.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

For example, have you ever compared a Howtek 4500 or 6500 to an EverSmart Supreme or to an IQSmart3 scanner? My understanding is that you have not, yet in message on another thread I saw that you referred to the EverSmart Supreme as a "mediocre" scanner. I am interested to know if that opinion is based on your own personal comparison of the Howteks with the EverSmart Supreme, or if it comes from another source. That is a simple question, not a statement that should question your integrity.
Sandy King

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I was just down at Aztek last month and had some conversations about the Eversmart Series of Scanners. They tested them, and had some very specific issues with them, but I won't quote them because I haven't. I trust their assessment because they are friends of mine... but they aren't my results, as you say.

My assessment comes from 2 particular items. One is analysis of the capacity of the Cezanne, which was quite lacking in comparison to a drum, and 2) my understanding of the differences between CCD's and PMT's in general (which I think is considerable). I understand that the Cezanne is not a Supreme. I look forward to someone coming over with a Supreme scan. It occurred to me yesterday that I have a colleague who has one locally and when I get some time I will go over there... and do a scan I hope this sets the record straight.

Lenny