AZO, HP5 8x10, adjusting for shadows and highlights, the next level for me,

[Sean in Atl]

Hi, I am a BFA photo student at a university that no longer has any 'old pros' on staff. I am the only one doing 8x10 and have some questions, thanks for reading.

First off, I have never read any of Ansel Adams books, I guess I need to do that. But I'm just saying that to let you know what I 'know.' I have seem his prints in person and understand that the kind of control those guys had can be helpful for me at this point in my development as a photographer working with traditional materials.

I am starting to see how I should be knowledgeable about different film developers now, maybe some kind of Pyro developer...

Here is what I am doing. Shooting close up portraits with an 8x10 with 200WS strobe to get some DOF. My goal is getting the subject to be the same size on the film. I feel that I have that part under control. Using a 'beauty dish' at F-32. Then I am contact printing on some old AZO paper, which is only a grade 2. I think that's my problem: no option for grades of paper.

I am shooting on HP5 using D-76 full strength and did some tests yesterday. I have found some exposures where I am happy with the shadow detail so I will now pull process to try to get some highlight detail. I have only done this in exercises in classes but it was early i my training so now I have a greater handle on nuances.

So, I am going to try to pull process 15% and 25% to see if that works for me. However, I think that the contrast will be reduced greatly. Is this right? If so, then if I am trying to contact print on a Grade 2 AZO paper this should be a problem. My guess is that the old pros didn't have this kind of problem because they had different grade paper options this wouldn't be a problem, right?

What should I do?

1. Should I be using a higher contrast developer? If so, what are they? I have heard that HC-110 gives a higher contrast, but then I also heard that full strength D-76 is also good..

2. Will a Pyro developer work for what I'm doing? And how would such a developer be advantageous to me in the future, anyway?

3. Are there developers where you can mix them differently to give you different levels of contrast?

Is there some reading I can do about this? I've read some things and search this forum but can't find the answers to these questions...

Please advise oh masters! Many thanks!

--Sean at Georgia State University in Atlanta, GA, USA

[Dan Schmidt]

for 8x10 and azo I would suggest reading every entry at this forum:

http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/default.asp

and all of michael's articles at
http://www.michaelandpaula.com

[Dan Schmidt]

also read this

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

at one point Michael and Sandy were working on a book, I don't know were that stands.

[Sean in Atl]

Thanks for the tips, however, I have already read all of those resources - unblinking eye and AZO forums. The info there does not exactly answer my questions. And the info on types of developers is very advanced and I can't make heads or tails of what I need to know about contrast control.

I can make a print on AZO just fine, so maybe I should not have mentioned the AZO....I really need guidance in the film processing part of things.

Thanks again in advance of anyone's reply.

--sean

[Bjorn Nilsson]

First, it looks like you havn't found a normal. But again, you've made other prints which looks good. So, in order to get things started, try to find a norm. From there you can calculate the pull/push needed. Working with studio lights can be very frustrating before you've learnt how to control and see the contrast ratio.
As HP5 is HP5 (more or less) regardless of filmsize, try to find a rollfilm camera to cut film costs, time etc. Once you've found how to meter, set the lights etc. you can go back to 8x10.

So, there's two factors here. The light/contrast range and the developing time. Most of us work outdoors and use Zone system terminology (regardless of using the Zone system or not). There we are talking of N, N-1, N+1 etc. where N denominates "Normal". This "Normal" is in the middle of full bright sunshine (which spans over 9 f/stops from black with some detail to white with some detail) and fully overcast (where the same span is only 5 f/stops). In order to get a negative which produces a nice print on grade 2 paper you have to adjust the developing time. Starting points (from the standard N time) is normally -20% and +30%.
Given this discussion, your proposed 15 or 25% (minus development or "pull") are just about what is needed to adjust for e.g. a portrait in direct sun. Go ahead and try it. If what you get now is a "little bit too white", you should be very close.

But again, the studio lights can be magical once you've learnt how to use them. Up until you've learnt how to see and meter contrast these same studio lights can act like a bad spell on you.

Seeing it from the positive side: With b/w film you have much more latitude than with digital. Even the most advanced digi camera would be in deep trouble given the light setup you are using. With HP5 (or TMX or TX or whatever) you can adjust the developing time a bit and get excellent results.

//Björn

[Dan Schmidt]

Basically if your shadows details look ok, then you need to be developing longer to get more contrast.

However not all film-developer combos can continue to build more contrast with development time. Generally Pyro developers can do this. Largely Pyrocat-HD is a favored pyro developer

Look at Sandy's article again. It will give you starting points.

In the section on developing times,

figure 20 shows data for HP5 developed in Pyrocat-HD. Sandy is plotting a parameter related to contrast as a function of developing time. The table at the start of the section tells you for Azo you want the parameter to be .7-.75. This plot shows that this is possible (look at some of the other plots and you will see that they flatten out, ie. it gets harder to build contrast with time).

So for this combo you would take some identical test shots and develop at say 4-6 times around the time of the point you want on the plot. Then print them all and pick the one that you like the most.

Development times will vary with type of development so it is probably best to test with sheet film. You could try 4x5 for tests, but I would just go for it with 8x10.

[Chuck Pere]

Not sure I understand your problem. Basically if you are happy with your shadows you can expose some tests using that exposure and develop them for different times. Print them on the AZO #2 and find the one that looks best. If you reduce development a lot you will probably have to increase exposure slightly (1/2 to 1 stop) to maintain your desired shadows. If you want to do all the zone system tests try a search for that or one of the many books on the subject. I suppose in your case you could also adjust the lighting to control the contrast. And you have to have a good answer when you ask yourself "Why am I using AZO and not a VC paper?".

[Bill_1856]

Your school may not have anyone who can direct your progress, but in Atlanta there should be lots of places to go for help. I suggest you "hang out" with some of the Local Camera Clubs (ugh) until you can find yourself a mentor.

[D. Bryant]

Your school may not have anyone who can direct your progress, but in Atlanta there should be lots of places to go for help. I suggest you "hang out" with some of the Local Camera Clubs (ugh) until you can find yourself a mentor.

I can just about assure you that there are probably zero individuals in Atlanta Camera clubs that use AZO. Very, very few eveb shoot LF; it's almost 100% digital in the club environment.

The answer to the OP question as I understand it is to develop AZO in Amidol and use a water bath to control highlight renderings. It is very effective.

Don Bryant

[Bill_1856]

I can just about assure you that there are probably zero individuals in Atlanta Camera clubs that use AZO.

Don Bryant

There's nothing different about using AZO. He just needs to learn how to make good, printable negatives, and then how to apply controls (burning, dodging, etc) to any printing papers.