Including the Sun in Frame/Flare

[Mattg]

The attached pictures show an attempt to shoot directly into the sun and include it in the picture.

I expected to get a lot of overall flare, perhaps strongest through the centre of the picture. The starburst is okay too.

I want to know about the other sort of flare seen in the cropped version on the trees. It radiates down from the sun and isn't atmospheric.

Is there anything I can do to avoid it? Is it caused by the (#23) filter or the design of the lens?

Thanks, Matt.

[Ralph Barker]

Including the sun, or some other super-bright reflection, is always a crap shoot (dice game), with results being up to the photo gods. My guess is that the added filter increased the central flare, adding a couple of additional flat surfaces for reflections. Multi-coated filters might do a little better. Your lens, however, seems to have performed well.

[Vaughn]

You might try putting any filters behind the lens, and then use a good lens shade -- one that can block out as much of the non-image-forming light as possible from entering the camera and bouncing around in there.

I do not know if this will help with the flare you are asking about, but it should help local contrast. Anyway, you have achieved the look desired by the digital film animators when they try to mimic the look of a movie camera panning across a scene with the sun in it.

Vaughn

PS...I took a photo in Goblin Valley in 2006 in the early morning (it was going to get hot!). I almost did not take it because some small clouds were throwing long thin shadows across the sky as the sun was rising. I haven't printed the negative yet, but I am afraid those sky shadows are just going to look like the sky of a unevenly developed negative!

[Mattg]

Thanks guys,
the filter was a B+W with MRC coating but may not have been spotlessly clean.

Like I said I'm happy with the central flare and starburst but the lines radiating downward from the sun spoil the image for me.

Anyway I'm going to keep trying this sort of thing when the opportunity presents itself, maybe I'll uses a compendium shade; it's a 65mm Ganrandagon N on 6x9cm so there's a lot of image cicle sending light into the camera bellows, maybe they are a significant further source of flare in the case.

Why don't you post your image here once you've developed it Vaughan, sounds interesting.

[Brian K]

Matt, if you can not look into the Sun, or can not see a clearly defined sphere, then the film surely can't candle it either. If you can see the sphere of the Sun without too much discomfort then the film should be able to record it in a normal looking scene. Messing with filters and coated lenses have little affect on a super bright sun or light source. Unless you under expose significantly.

[Mattg]

Thanks Brian,
I'm not concerned with the overall flare or with resolving the sun as a disk (for that I've noticed that you need to hide it behind thinnish cloud). Making this shot I was sure of one thing: lots of flare! In general I don't mind the overall loss of contrat (that I plan to correct somewhat in printing) or the way to sun is shown (which as you point out is pretty much how your eyes might see it).

The only thing I'm unhappy about are the lines in the cropped version, you can see them most clearly radiating downward from the sun above the trees. At first I thought it was an atmospheric effect but it's definitely some sort of flare.

I'd be interested to know if others are able to include the sun in frame without getting these regular, radial lines.

(I've just noticed these lines are hard to see on this monitor so they may be on others. If you look at the forest in the crop you'l see a regular pattern of light and dark lines.)

P.S. Sorry for mispelling your name Vaughn.

[vinny]

My pentax 67 lenses handle this situation nicely but that doesn't help you.
Use a modern multicoated lens like newer symmar-s or sironars. I've had success with a 150mm symmar-s but not without small circular flares. First of all, Don't use a filter. Make sure the lens doesn't have any dust. Placing the sun close to the center of the frame is usually your best chance of a flare free shot but not always good for your composition.

[gregstidham]

I'd agree with the other posters. Those lines look to me like a filter that is dirty or perhaps move the filter to the rear like Vaughn suggests. It seems like you were using a nice filter, so IMO it did as well as I'd expect shooting directly into the sun.

Some other things to try - A french flag to shade the lens works well. Wide Angle lenses are tougher to use with the french flag. Often, shooting direct into the sun may make it impossible to shade the lens and have to rely on the lens coatings to help.

Or try one of these or something similar sold in the motion picture industry.
http://www.ebonycamera.com/acc.html#Lens%20shade%20clip

[RJ-]

Thanks guys,
the filter was a B+W with MRC coating but may not have been spotlessly clean.

Like I said I'm happy with the central flare and starburst but the lines radiating downward from the sun spoil the image for me.

Anyway I'm going to keep trying this sort of thing when the opportunity presents itself, maybe I'll uses a compendium shade; it's a 65mm Ganrandagon N on 6x9cm so there's a lot of image cicle sending light into the camera bellows, maybe they are a significant further source of flare in the case.

Why don't you post your image here once you've developed it Vaughan, sounds interesting.

Hi Matt,

I don't know if this helps, however I've found that the combination of refraction & reflection from an added glass filter surface is sufficient to cause this kind of specular light flare.

The orientation of the filter angle, particularly non-plane parallel filters contribute to this phenomenon. As such, the specular flare can be removed by re-angling or rotating the filter on its thread.

A filter hood reduces the phenomenon with a consequent increased contrast range: this can be very difficult to control particularly when facing a 14 stop contrast range. With a circular filter, the specular flare phenomenon can be observed on the ground glass (although difficult, due to the blinding from the contrast range) and rotated away.

On a tangent, I don't know if it helps, but I wondered whether using extended tonal development techniques might help tame the contrast with regular film (image shot on Fuji Acros, FX39 1:102, Schneider 90mm XL f5.6). This one's imperfect, but I think the technique is worth practicing on..

Kind regards,

RJ


Circular: Internal (non-multicoated flare): http://www.luxcamera.co.uk/pages/Pla...7;20abbaye.htm

Strike: reflection/refraction specular flare: http://www.luxcamera.co.uk/pages/Pla...%20journee.htm

[Vaughn]

Thanks guys,
snip...Why don't you post your image here once you've developed it Vaughan, sounds interesting.

It will be awhile before I get around to printing that one (if I do...there is some local contrast "problems" with it.) But I might scan the neg tonight and post it. We arrived at the Goblin Valley State Park at around 10pm and set up camp. I got up before the wife and kids and drove over to where all the goblins are.

Neat place...but I suggest some other time than July! A bit toasty!

Vaughn (Vaughan, Vaugh, Vaugn, Von, or whatever!)