Looking to buy a 44" printer

[JoelBelmont]

What recommendations would you make for a 44" wide printer? I would probably default to the 9800, but I have also been hearing good things about other brands.

Thanks.

~Joel Belmont
www.JoelBelmont.com

[Ted Harris]

Joel, it depends on what printer you are moving to a 44" machine from and if you own a spectrophotometer. I think the default choice right now would be the HPz3100. You get a 1500 discuount justnfor sending them the serial number of another wide format printer and the builtin spectrophotometer is worth beteen 1000-2000 (if you had to purchase the one that is installed as a stand alone it would cost you close to 2K). Add to that that the ink costs of both the HP and Canon printers are lower than those of the Epsons for most printing applications.

Now uless you are into production printing ink cost difference are a marginal benefit (and debatable too since it is difficult to assure you are getting a very accurate measurement of ink usage without very expensive tests). If you never intend to do your own paper profiling then the spectrophotometer is a needless expense (but I think you would want to do your own profiling. I think it is a great idea but there are many very good printers who use canned profiles and produce gorgeous prints). If you don't have access to a serial number then the discount is meaningless.

Assuming any of the conditions listd above apply then the z3100 is the machine. Assuming none of them apply then buy the machine that best fits yoru budget, space and method of working. The Canon will be the queitest. Botht he Canon and HP are slightly more modern technology than the Epson. All three can produce prints that look virtually identical until you examine the dot pattern with a high power magnifier. I have been running a Canon and HP printer side-by-side for review (HP Review is out an dcanon coming) for some months and have printed the same image from the same file on the same paper on both machines (and on an Epson 3800 for some) and also compared the output to my old Epson 4800; as long as the printing parameters are set right the prints looks the same. I have done this on smaller prints than you are contemplating since the HP is a 13x19 machine. Sometime in the next month I will have a z3100 to test and can continue the comparisons. I am hopeful that sometime soon I will be able to test machines that are all driven with the same RIP being a RIP that takes over the entire printing process and totally bypasses the printer driver .... that will enable a much more rigerous test. But, back to the prints ... they tell the tale.

[JoelBelmont]

I don't have a current printer. I was originally going to start with the 3800, then liked the 220ml capacity of the 4800 over that, but since I will be doing a fair amount of large printing, I figured I might as well go for the larger one. All my work will be from scanned 4x5 negs.

I would be interested to learn more about HP. Is there any difference in archivalness of HP inks? I am assuming cone makes inks for these printers as well.

would it be worthwhile to buy a junk printer on ebay for the serial number? I'll have to look into what requirements they have.

Thanks.

[Ron McElroy]

At work we've recently replaced an Epson 10600 with a HP5500. The HP is much better than the Epson and it seems to use less ink. In all fairness to Epson that machine was about 4 years old. This printer is used in a printing press application with photo dye inksets.

[Ted Harris]

Thee requirements are very simple.

The HP Vivera and the Canon Lucida inksets are both as archival as Epson's .... maybe even more so. Both the HP and Canonprinters use less ink as I mentioned above. Why would you want to use Cone/Inkjet Mall third party inks for a new printer anyway, doing so would void yoru warranty? Moreover, I just checked and their prices are the same as what I pay for ink from Midwest Photo for Epson ink.

Finally, why 44" and not 24" or 17"? You say you want to print large from 4x5 scanned negatives, how are you scanning them? I ask because you ae not likely to be satisfied with the results you get from images printed from scans from a consumer scanner (any of the under $1000 scanners) printed larger than 16x20. Even if you have other scanning plans, how often will you be printing larger than 16x20 or 24x30 or that range? You can get the HP z3100 in a 24" as well as the 44" size. Canonright now takes you from the iPF 5000 at 17" up to the 8000 at 44" They will have a 24" printer available sometime between mid summer and fall.

[Gordon Moat]

When moving to that wide, there are more choices on the market. You might want to see if any reviews are up at The Big Picture magazine. I get this every month, and their emphasis is only on very wide printers.

Operating cost might be a consideration when running a business. If this printer is only for your own usage, and will not be high volume, then the cost per sq.ft. of output might be less of a consideration.

I have to wonder about all the talk of archival prints. Other than Wilhelm Imaging, there is no ISO standard for this term, so only defined by whatever tests that company has done at the request of manufacturers. Many very high end very large printers have never been tested by Wilhelm Imaging; does that mean they are not archival? When an artist sells an archival print, are they providing a written guarantee against fading? A reprint guarantee? And for how much later in the future?

Another trend I see in large prints is unusual mounting methods, such as laminating, face mounting, or bonding onto metal. I have also investigated printing directly onto metal, glass, acrylic, and other materials; though they used UV cured inks (five years guarantee outdoors, ability to be hosed or wiped off . . . archival?) on a huge flatbed printer.

The professional line from Epson is called Seiko or Seiko Epson. These might be too large, or too expensive, though the technology is similar. Mutoh, Roland, Mimaki and a few other companies also use Seiko Epson head designs. Anyway, just wanted to make people aware that there are many printers on the market.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio

[Bruce Watson]

Why would you want to use Cone/Inkjet Mall third party inks for a new printer anyway, doing so would void your warranty?

This is a myth. At least in the USA, it's illegal for Epson to invalidate your warranty for using non-Epson inks in Epson printers. They can not force you to use their inks or their substrates. Neither can HP or Canon or anyone else. I believe the same is true for the European Union which has equal or better consumer protection laws.

To get around this, they have spent a great deal of time and effort creating novel new (and patentable) ink cartridges, including their "chipped" cartridges. There is little if anything here to improve print quality, but much to make it very difficult for third party ink suppliers to sell ink for Epson printers, which is the point.

Aside from that, the reason to use the Cone grayscale inks is better B&W printing (at least on matte substrates) than one can get from the Epson color inksets.

[JoelBelmont]

Thee requirements are very simple.

why 44" and not 24" or 17"? You say you want to print large from 4x5 scanned negatives, how are you scanning them? I ask because you ae not likely to be satisfied with the results you get from images printed from scans from a consumer scanner (any of the under $1000 scanners) printed larger than 16x20. Even if you have other scanning plans, how often will you be printing larger than 16x20 or 24x30 or that range?

The larger prints would be done from drum scans, small prints from a 4870. I intend to do very large work, so that is what necessitated the printer size.

[Ted Harris]

Bruce, sure its partially a myth but they can still hassle you if you are dumb enough to let them know. I say partially because if the substitute inkss you use are not the same formulation as the OEM product then I think they will have a case to deny coverage. As for the Cone inks for B&W printing I totally agee regarding earlier Epson printers but not so sure with the current versions. No way to tell with HP or Canon printers as they don't do ink for them yet. I would be surprised if they did any better that the OEM HP inks for the B9180 and "z" series as the black and gray inks they produce have a high percentage of black carbon and don't seem to have any magenta as do the Epson K3 inks.

[Bruce Watson]

...if the substitute inks kyou use are not the same formulation as the OEM product then I think they will hae a ase to deny coverage.

You must have been in a hurry - this is hard to read!

I think you are saying that using an ink that doesn't match the OEM formulation is grounds for denial of warranty coverage. In fact it is illegal for a company to deny service because you are using third party consumables. I believe the applicable law is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act.

As a moderator on this forum, and a contributing editor for View Camera you have a certain responsibility. Your posts carry more weight than posts by others. You owe it to yourself and to the thousands of people listening to you on the various groups and forums to be correct in what you post. All I'm saying is, why don't you talk to Cone and MIS and Epson and Canon and HP and find out what's really going on? Might make for an interesting article.