Any Schneider 210XL owners here?

[konakoa]

I just bought a like-new Schneider Super Symmar 210mm XL lens. The big giant one in the copal 3 shutter with the impossible front lens element that no glass filters exist for. My plans are to use it on a 8x20 camera this spring.

In checking the lens on my 8x10 camera (8x20 isn't here yet) I noticed right away it’s noticeably soft. To the eye, looks okay on the ground glass. But with a 12x loupe I can see it just isn’t razor sharp, not at all like my other lenses. Very fine details, small signs with text, distant window panes just can’t be resolved with the precision and perfect sharpness I’m accustomed to.

Is this just a characteristic of the lens because of its insane image circle? Should it be behaving like this? Again, this is going on an 8x20 that will only be contact printed from. Any other owners of this lens reading this?

[Corran]

Didn't notice any issues on mine, either when focusing or on the negatives...

[Kiwi7475]

Same here, no issues with sharpness. Is it possible that the spacing of the two cells has been altered, like ones of them is loose, or that shims have been lost? (just brainstorming). Maybe it’s time to reach out to whoever you purchased it from.

[konakoa]

Thanks Corran and Kiwi. Perhaps I’m being a bit too expectant of the lens. The image of the XL does look good on the ground glass of my 8x10. By eye alone it looks just fine. I have to remember this lens is a very different beast from the standard 210 lenses we all normally see and use.

I have no doubts it’ll work great on the 8x20 when it gets here. I was just a bit surprised when I put a high power loupe on the glass and couldn’t get the micro-tiny stuff to snap in focus like I’m used to. I assume possibly that was a tradeoff for the massive image circle.

[minh0204]

I'd owned two different 210XL's at some point (long story), and both of them were super sharp in the center at f8, and across 8x10 frame at f16. The sharpness did drop slightly with the unobtanium centre filter. Interestingly one lens was shimmed and the other not, so definitely some fine tuning were done at Schneider before they left the factory. If yours feels soft it might be due to that. Try to unscrew the front element slightly (someone should assist you!) to see if a shim is needed.

These days I prefer the Grandagon 200mm, it has a much bigger rear element but I don't need to use the centre filter. Sharpness-wise they're both superb.

[Mark Sampson]

I'd look at a negative exposed at your most common f/stop (f/22?) with the loupe. That's "ground truth".

[Mark J]

With a 12x loupe you will be looking at it quite critically.
Are you talking about what you can see with the lens at f/5.6 or f/8 ?
I supply the Schneider performance curves below. The field performance at f/5.6 and f/8 is a bit soft in the field, certainly when compared to something like an Apo Symmar 210 ( which does of course have a smaller field ) .
The upper pair of curves here is the MTF for 5cy/mm.
The XL really needs to be stopped down to f/16 before it gets sharp in the field ... if you are looking that closely.

[konakoa]

Just for clarity I would like to say the lens is looking fine on the ground glass to the plain eye. From a normal distance it looks good. Just comparing it under high magnification I'm noticing peculiarities.

Mark J, yes, I am examining the image at f/5.6. And 12x is a lot. Not optimal at that aperture nor magnification I realize yet my other lenses do look fantastic at the same magnification with the lens wide open when focusing. That's what had me initially wondering about what I was seeing with the 210XL and if it was behaving as it should. However...

Kiwi, Minh, you may be on to something with the shims. I set up the camera outside and examined and focused very carefully with the 12x loupe on the ground glass. To not risk the lens I didn't unscrew the front element (doggone that thing is big) but adjusted the rear element inside the camera by unscrewing it and rechecking the image on the ground glass with the loupe. I found with the rear element fully screwed in the image is slightly, slightly soft seen in the magnifier. Hard lines with contrast were a bit mushy. When I unscrewed the rear element one full turn (I did various amounts) I saw a noticeable improvement. Then it looked and behaved like my normal lenses. Focus snapped into place, fine details were apparent.

I'm cautiously thinking it may need shims then. Might've been misplaced by the previous owner. I'm about to do some exposures (right with you Mark S) on film to double check the whole spacing thing.

If I do need shims, Schenider Optics here in the US is long, long gone. Anyone think Schnider Germany would do it without having to send the entire lens to them?

[Michael R]

Just for clarity I would like to say the lens is looking fine on the ground glass to the plain eye. From a normal distance it looks good. Just comparing it under high magnification I'm noticing peculiarities.

Mark J, yes, I am examining the image at f/5.6. And 12x is a lot. Not optimal at that aperture nor magnification I realize yet my other lenses do look fantastic at the same magnification with the lens wide open when focusing. That's what had me initially wondering about what I was seeing with the 210XL and if it was behaving as it should. However...

Kiwi, Minh, you may be on to something with the shims. I set up the camera outside and examined and focused very carefully with the 12x loupe on the ground glass. To not risk the lens I didn't unscrew the front element (doggone that thing is big) but adjusted the rear element inside the camera by unscrewing it and rechecking the image on the ground glass with the loupe. I found with the rear element fully screwed in the image is slightly, slightly soft seen in the magnifier. Hard lines with contrast were a bit mushy. When I unscrewed the rear element one full turn (I did various amounts) I saw a noticeable improvement. Then it looked and behaved like my normal lenses. Focus snapped into place, fine details were apparent.

I'm cautiously thinking it may need shims then. Might've been misplaced by the previous owner. I'm about to do some exposures (right with you Mark S) on film to double check the whole spacing thing.

If I do need shims, Schenider Optics here in the US is long, long gone. Anyone think Schnider Germany would do it without having to send the entire lens to them?

I really hope the you don’t need it serviced by Schneider. That’s going to cost a bundle if they will even do it.

As I recall in Schneider’s literature for the XL aspeherics (I have the 110) there was a warning not to disassemble the front from the shutter due to alignment/shimming being extra finicky on these. Hopefully the previous owner(s) didn’t mess with it.

[Conrad . Marvin]

SK Grimes could make one for you at much less cost than sending to Germany. . . Or maybe they could make you a ring that would space the lens exactly one revolution of a lens element without the lens because they would know the TPI and diameter of the lens mount in the shutter.