Selecting 4x5 camera for Long Tele application Longest bellow possible ?

[Wall-H]

Hi Expert,

Most likely this will fall under ridicules request but is there any 4x5 system out there that will allow me bellows to 800 to 900 mm ?
Following are the details.

Location : 100% in studio.
Lenses: Nikkor-T ED 360/500 mm (may be 800 mm)
Intended Formats: 4x5 films, Digital back.

I'm currently on Cambo Actus system and i found that Longest bellows is 450 mm and not available unless i special order and i can buy another used cambo at the price of that bellows. So before i start selecting my 4x5 film, I'd like to check if it is even possible to have that long bellows on 4x5 ?

Thanks,
Rahul

[xkaes]

There are plenty of 4x5 cameras that allow you to add on extra bellows (and rails to support them), but you can easily use many tele lenses with much shorter bellows because REAL telephoto lenses have flange focal lengths much shorter than their optical focal length. For example, I use a 600mm Fujinon T lens on my 4x5 which has 360mm of extension without any problem. To go to the 800mm-1000mm range, you'll need a camera that has a much longer bellows or one that can expand.

Another option is simply to get as long as you can with whatever camera and bellows you have -- and then CROP.

[Wall-H]

There are plenty of 4x5 cameras that allow you to add on extra bellows (and rails to support them), but you can easily use many tele lenses with much shorter bellows because REAL telephoto lenses have flange focal lengths much shorter than their optical focal length. For example, I use a 600mm Fujinon T lens on my 4x5 which has 360mm of extension without any problem. To go to the 800mm-1000mm range, you'll need a camera that has a much longer bellows or one that can expand.

Another option is simply to get as long as you can with whatever camera and bellows you have -- and then CROP.

Thank you. I'm trying to avoid crop. So with Nikkor-T ED 500 mm, i've FFD 350 mm. Hoping that by 400mm, i'll be able to focus inside my studio (so more as i'm not focusing on infinity). But if i'll go to 800mm then i'll be at 1:1 reproduction ratio. At least that is my hope.

[xkaes]

Thank you. I'm trying to avoid crop. So with Nikkor-T ED 500 mm, i've FFD 350 mm. Hoping that by 400mm, i'll be able to focus inside my studio (so more as i'm not focusing on infinity). But if i'll go to 800mm then i'll be at 1:1 reproduction ratio. At least that is my hope.

If the 500mm has a FFL of 350mm, you'll need 350mm + 500mm (850mm) to reach 1:1 -- but 800mm will be darn close. So all you need is a tiny crop for 1:1.

[Oren Grad]

Thank you. I'm trying to avoid crop. So with Nikkor-T ED 500 mm, i've FFD 350 mm. Hoping that by 400mm, i'll be able to focus inside my studio (so more as i'm not focusing on infinity). But if i'll go to 800mm then i'll be at 1:1 reproduction ratio. At least that is my hope.

Why do you need 1:1 if, per the discussion in the other thread, your interest is in portraiture? 1:1 on 4x5 means recording only a portion of someone's face, not even a tightly-cropped complete head shot.

If what you're really after is, say, head-and-shoulders shots, then 1:2.5 or 1:3 should be all that you need, and that will make finding a suitable camera setup much easier.

[Wall-H]

Why do you need 1:1 if, per the discussion in the other thread, your interest is in portraiture? 1:1 on 4x5 means recording only a portion of someone's face, not even a tightly-cropped complete head shot.

If what you're really after is, say, head-and-shoulders shots, then 1:2.5 or 1:3 should be all that you need, and that will make finding a suitable camera setup much easier.

Great point. Basically that's what i shot before, and that's what i like to shoot. I'm okay not shooting in 4x5 film if i can't get that setup. I was happy in my Nikon D850 200mm F/4 macro 1:1 world till a concept/idea came up for which i needed to use Scheimpflug principle and I got into MFDB inferno.

I've love hate relationship with film but when i take some pictures like below,

I feel i should take these on film too.
So go forward, I'm trying to get 2 systems.
1. Phase 1 IQ3 100mp : Via Cambo Actus or with something similar to that with ~ 300mm to 400 mm i can achieve this Full frame 200 F/4 one to one macro. Other thread helped me with This point. I'm nearly there and I'll keep IQ3 100 and continue digital set up.
2. On 4x5 film : I don't want to make mistake that i did with Cambo. I entered into system without knowing bellow and system calculations. If i don't find the set up, i don't want to make move. I'd love to but i'll rather find details first. I'm hoping other thread will help me get to gear so i can shoot 4x5.

I hope this helps. I'm not professional, if i don't take this picture, no one going hungry at home so if i get this info, great but i don't want to cause any inconvenience to anyone.

[Dan Fromm]

So go forward, I'm trying to get 2 systems.
1. Phase 1 IQ3 100mp : Via Cambo Actus or with something similar to that with ~ 300mm to 400 mm i can achieve this Full frame 200 F/4 one to one macro. Other thread helped me with This point. I'm nearly there and I'll keep IQ3 100 and continue digital set up.
2. On 4x5 film : I don't want to make mistake that i did with Cambo. I entered into system without knowing bellow and system calculations. If i don't find the set up, i don't want to make move. I'd love to but i'll rather find details first. I'm hoping other thread will help me get to gear so i can shoot 4x5.

I hope this helps. I'm not professional, if i don't take this picture, no one going hungry at home so if i get this info, great but i don't want to cause any inconvenience to anyone.

1. Huh? 1:1 on an IQ3 100mp? Do you really want to shoot a subject the size of the IQ3's sensor? You've been talking about shooting models. At 1:1 you'll capture 53.4 mm x 40 mm of a model. On the face of it, this is ridiculous. When you write 1:1, what do you mean?

2. You want a long rail 4x5. The humble Cambo SC system is modular, uses rails that are 1" square. You can make a rail for an SC as long as you want, and cheaply, out of 80/20 brand t-slotted extrusion, size 1010. Cambo sells intermediate standards for connecting one bellows to another. Or you can use normal ordinary 4x5 SC standards. They're cheap, but heavier than the intermediate ones. So are bellows. Support will be a problem. And so will shooting models, if that's what you want to do. You'll have to convince them to hold poses for as long as it takes you to get the composition you want and go through the close the shutter, cock the shutter, stop down to shooting aperture, insert film holder, pull dark slide and shoot bit.

If you shoot 4x5 at 1:1, you'll get a 4x5 inch bit of model. Larger than 53.4 mm x 40 mm, but is that what you want?

And why do you want to use a tele lens? They make sense only for short cameras.

[Wall-H]

1. Huh? 1:1 on an IQ3 100mp? Do you really want to shoot a subject the size of the IQ3's sensor? You've been talking about shooting models. At 1:1 you'll capture 53.4 mm x 40 mm of a model. On the face of it, this is ridiculous. When you write 1:1, what do you mean?
If you shoot 4x5 at 1:1, you'll get a 4x5 inch bit of model. Larger than 53.4 mm x 40 mm, but is that what you want?

ok. When i say 1:1 i mean that completely in Nikon full frame Nikkor 200 mm F/4 True macro 1:1 lens mounted on D850. For me it means around 5 ft from model, i see this image. If that is not 1:1 if it is something else then i stand corrected. This look is what i'm looking for.

and that is what i'm trying to achieve. Minimum 5ft and probably not more than 10 ft distance from model covering as much as you see in above picture. That's all i need. I don't mean to confuse anyone (Though i'm super confused.) . I agree with your points but this is example image i'm looking for.

Support will be a problem. And so will shooting models, if that's what you want to do. You'll have to convince them to hold poses for as long as it takes you to get the composition you want and go through the close the shutter, cock the shutter, stop down to shooting aperture, insert film holder, pull dark slide and shoot bit.

Yeah. That is not a problem at all. First up, i don't have to convince them at all. It's models who talked me into this film stuff because they want these pictures. I suspect that they brainwashed me into this film. All models i work with, LOVE film. We have markers placed on ground. Plenty of strobes filling room. Shooting at F16 to F22. I picked the string method from this forum. Focusing is not easy but that is not problem for me as much as this bellow thing + Good models hold the poses. I've seen 8x10 wet plate photographer taking count of 10 and getting decent sharp picture with good model. Thank you for heads up though.

And why do you want to use a tele lens? They make sense only for short cameras.

I agree. This is not much sensible. But i believe i can make it count. I put Nikon 400 2.8 on Hasselblad X1Dii 50c. Via converter, it resulted in 319 mm 2.2. I'd to handhold ~14 lbs lens and later put it on gimble and took picture of bird on manual focus. It was totally worth it. I'm tele photographer. I'm really not into normal or wide photography. You help me with this camera/gear set up i need, I owe you jaw dropping picture ..
So far with each of these gear updates (Nikon to Hasselblad to Phase one) me and my team (model and make up artists) see significant improvement (not just technically but overall) in pictures we are taking. I'm hoping this 4x5 would be the last jump on gear side before we start concentrating all efforts on creative side.

[Vaughan]

I put Nikon 400 2.8 on Hasselblad X1Dii 50c. Via converter, it resulted in 319 mm 2.2. I'd to handhold ~14 lbs lens and later put it on gimble and took picture of bird on manual focus. It was totally worth it. I'm tele photographer. I'm really not into normal or wide photography. You help me with this camera/gear set up i need, I owe you jaw dropping picture ... I'm hoping this 4x5 would be the last jump on gear side before we start concentrating all efforts on creative side.

If you're into tele then large format will not meet your needs.

[Dan Fromm]

ok. When i say 1:1 i mean that completely in Nikon full frame Nikkor 200 mm F/4 True macro 1:1 lens mounted on D850. For me it means around 5 ft from model, i see this image. If that is not 1:1 if it is something else then i stand corrected.

Oh, dear, that's not what 1:1 means. Please go away, learn the common language, and then come back. Trying to help you when you don't understand what you're told is as waste of your time and ours.