Are there planar-type lenses longer than 135mm for large format?

[StuartR]

I recently found a copy of the 135mm 3.5 Zeiss Planar T* and I have been very impressed with the lens. I love the rendering of the out of focus areas, and my copy is quite sharp even wide open. On medium format one of my favorite all time lenses was the 110mm Planar, and I feel like the 135mm renders quite similarly. The only thing I find is that I would love to have something similar in a longer focal length...perhaps closer to 210mm. I know that Zeiss themselves did not make modern LF lenses other than the 135mm, but I am curious to know if there were other lens designs that rendered in a similar way. I have some lovely plasmats that are great, just curious if there are lenses that render similarly. To give an idea, here are two shots done wide open that have its characteristically smooth out of focus rendering. Do the Cooke lenses share a similar character?
(Edit: the images look pretty bad here once uploaded, but they are quite sharp and nice in person.)

[domaz]

It looks like Igor has a Zeiss Planar 205mm f/4 on "Hold" for someone. So they are out there, but I haven't encountered very many of them. Have you tried a more common f/4.5 Tessar design lens to see how the Bokeh compares? In my experience fast Tessars are quite good and underrated.

http://www.igorcamera.com/zeiss_large_format_lenses.htm

[sharktooth]

Schneider used to make the 150mm f2.8 Xenotar, and you can still see used ones around. They're very expensive, and they barely cover 4x5, so forget about using any movements.

[David Lindquist]

It looks like Igor has a Zeiss Planar 205mm f/4 on "Hold" for someone. So they are out there, but I haven't encountered very many of them. Have you tried a more common f/4.5 Tessar design lens to see how the Bokeh compares? In my experience fast Tessars are quite good and underrated.

http://www.igorcamera.com/zeiss_large_format_lenses.htm

That Igor lens is described as "brass" and must be an example of the "original" Planar designed by Dr. Paul Rudolph in 1896 (Rudolph Kingslake, A History of the Photographic Lens, Academic Press, 1989).

In his excellent paper on the large format lenses of Carl Zeiss Oberkochen, Arne Cröll mentions a 210 mm f/5.6 Planar, made only as a prototype. He also mentions some 150 mm f/2.8 Planars, also made only as prototypes. See: https://www.arnecroell.com/zeissoberkochen.pdf

David

[Vaidotas]

Planar is complex double gauss type of lens.
For some unknown to me reasons there is not much this type of lens for large format photography in longer focal lenghts.
Kodak wide field Ektar, Meyer Aristostigmat, Wollensak series 1 are wide angle lens, common in shorter FL.
For 210 mm there is Rodenstock Eurynar (some of them are dialytes, some dagor style) and Ross Homocentric (some of them dagor style).
There is slim chance to find them single coated and shuttered.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Other than the longer Zeiss planars, Schneider made a handful of 210mm f2.8 Xenotars, like 10 or so. Really really rare. In 30 years of obsessing about fast lenses I have seen two sell (last one was ~20 years ago for $5000).

[Bernice Loui]

Read this paper on ~Large format lenses from Carl Zeiss Oberkochen 1950-1972~
By Prof. Arne Cröll

https://www.arnecroell.com/zeissoberkochen.pdf
Specific to Zeiss for sheet film, most common is the 135mm Planar, followed by a few prototypes made by Zeiss noted in this article.

Current sought after double Gauss (Planar formula) 4x5 sheet film lenses are
~Kodak Aero Ektars:
https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01539/01539.pdf

~Schneider Xenotar, 135mm & 150mm.
https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=150mm+xenotar
https://www.largeformatphotography.i...d-Zeiss-Planar

~Komura 152mm f/2.8:
https://www.largeformatphotography.i...riences-wanted

There is more to in to out of focus rendition and bokeh than lens formula alone. Having owned/used the Hasselblad 110mm f2 Planar in the past it does have nice into out of focus rendition at full aperture, as does the 135mm Planar, 120mm Planar, 100mm planar.. once stopped down the lens aperture blades take effect and the in to out of focus rendition and bokeh changes, not for the better..

Prime advantage of the double Gauss formula is good optical correction at large apertures. The f2.8 / f3.5 double Gauss lenses for 4x5 were designed and intended for hand held 4x5 press cameras where large lens aperture was an advantage back in those times. It does result in a lens that is large. This combined with shutter size limitations and the need for camera movements and smaller exposure apertures for the majority of images made using a view camera back then greatly limited the rational and market need for these large aperture lenses.

Essentially, camera movements were far more valued than large lens full aperture.

There were a number of Zeiss Planar process lenses made, these had low contrast due to lack of lens coating technology when these were made.
Demo_ed on example decades ago, no thanks. That experience explained why these early Zeiss Planar process lenses were not successful in the market..

Notable alternative would be the Zeiss Sonnar which was also discussed in By Prof. Arne Cröll paper on Zeiss LF lenses.
Example of in to out of focus rendition and bokeh, 180mm @ f4.8 Zeiss Sonnar, Linhof TK23s 6x9, 120 roll film:


Know majority of modern view camera lenses in modern shutters like Copal, Compur and such often have non-round iris which impacts in to out of focus rendition and bokeh. This is rooted in the way modern view camera lenses were used (majority of the image in focus, optimize performance at f22, typical Plasmat). Much a response to market demands and needs from that era.

Prior to this, in to out of focus rendition and bokeh were valued and why majority of previous generation view camera lenses have round iris in shutter or barrel. It this aspect of view camera lens personality is important to you, consider using view camera lenses from the previous generation in older Compur, Compound, Ilex and other similar vintage shutters. The alternative is to use lenses from that previous generation in barrel with a on camera shutter like Sinar.

Do consider a Tessar formula lens as they have been made for over a century and valued to this day as sheet film view camera lenses due to their in to out of focus rendition and bokeh. Others would be Heilar and similar. Know once at f11 to f16, the advantages of these lens formulas are less, with other lens design formulas like Dagor, Dialyte could become the preferred.


Bernice

[jp]

I'd look for the tessar options. Something 210-ish and 4.5 and lots of round aperture blades. Fujinar 210/4.5 in copal 3s shutter are <$200 on the auction site.

img502s by Jason Philbrook, on Flickr

Other cheap lenses besides the tessar are 210 trioplan (triplet) but it's usually not in a shutter.

[StuartR]

Thank you all for the advice. It is interesting to hear about the 210mm 2.8 Xenotar....though it does not sound like I will find one! I will have a look into tessars. I am not as familiar with them. The aperture blades are also a consideration...that said, I have not had too many problems with unpleasant shapes in the bokeh with most of my LF lenses...not like with Hasselblad V lenses for example. Is the Fuji 450mm 12.5 a tessar type lens? I know it is certainly slower than 4.5, but I use it on 8x10 and find it to be excellent. I am typically shooting it at f22, however.

[slavatokar]

How about an apo-planars (copy lenses)?