Hunting for that special 4x5, my first LF camera

[justlikeswimming]

Hi folks, newbie to LFPF and about to jump into the LF pool. I've learned so much reading various posts (thanks to all!) and think I've narrowed camera choices to two. It was mentioned to me at another forum that this might be worth bringing up to you LF experts, so here goes. If this topic has already been discussed to death (and variations have, for sure) my apologies in advance (I'll do better next time!).

Some basic info - I like to shoot (Appalachian) landscapes, old (mostly small) structures (barns, houses, etc.), and macro shots of flowers, foliage, etc. All of my work is done in the 'wild', no studio work. I love the greater detail and control that LF provides.

Macro is my favorite - moving from 35mm to medium format was a great leap in macro possibilities, I can only imagine how much more LF will provide! I've got the idea that I can better control where the narrow DOF falls in my macro photos by playing with movements. Getting the DOF in the exact right position with my Mamiya c220 and Mamiya 645 1000s is really difficult. Also, I like to hike into the wilderness to take photos, so a portable and tough camera is needed.

Within my very limited budget I've narrowed choices to 2 technical cameras - Horseman 45FA and Wista 45SP. I'm leaning toward the Wista (longer bellows and a little nicer back movements), but it is heavier than the Horseman! I've been hauling around a mamiya 645 1000s + prism meter + 120mm macro +2-3 more lenses, I don't think the Wista will be heavier than that!

So the question is - are these cameras a good start in LF, given my needs? I considered field cameras but (1) they are very expensive right now and (2) the cheaper ones I might afford just don't look like they could survive the crazy trails (or lack of trails) I hike.

Sorry to be so long winded, and thanks for any and all suggestions and comments!

[Drew Wiley]

The Horseman FA is a beautifully made clamshell fold-up style technical camera but with limited bellows. Not ideal for lenses longer than 210 unless you use a tele. A "tophat" extension board would allow you to use a 240. It's a reasonable priced and lighter wt alternative to a 4X5 Technika. But you would probably have enough bellows draw to do closeup work with a 150 G-Claron or, even better, a 180/f9 Fuji A-series lens. With respect to lenses, just realize that many large format lenses are really lightweight compared to medium format ones, often even lighter than 35mm lenses. So that offsets the camera weight itself somewhat. I'm not familiar with Wista cameras except for the little wooden folding ones.

[justlikeswimming]

The Horseman FA is a beautifully made clamshell fold-up style technical camera but with limited bellows. Not ideal for lenses longer than 210 unless you use a tele. A "tophat" extension board would allow you to use a 240. It's a reasonable priced and lighter wt alternative to a 4X5 Technika. But you would probably have enough bellows draw to do closeup work with a 150 G-Claron or, even better, a 180/f9 Fuji A-series lens. With respect to lenses, just realize that many large format lenses are really lightweight compared to medium format ones, often even lighter than 35mm lenses. So that offsets the camera weight itself somewhat. I'm not familiar with Wista cameras except for the little wooden folding ones.

Thanks for the information! 150-180mm lens for macro work sounds good, though the longer bellows of the Wista may help in this regard. I'm not that familiar with the practicality of a 'tophat' in the field. I haven't spent much time looking at the variety of lenses, your suggestions help! Thanks so much!

[Gabe]

I'm not that familiar with the practicality of a 'tophat' in the field.

Just be aware that a top hat board will offset the rear nodal point of the lens to be forward of the pivot point of the front standard. In practice this means tilts or swings of the front standard will also shift the image significantly, which will then need to be compensated for using counter-shift movements of the standards. Note that telephoto lens designs also inherently do this because their nodal point is in front of the lens rather than within it.

These factors are especially relevant to macro work, so if you plan to do a lot of that I would avoid a top hat board if you can.

[Bernice Loui]

Top hat and recessed lens boards are camera limitation "sorta-fix_it band-aids". If the camera has proper capability to fully support the lenses or optics required to meet the image goals, no top hat or recessed lens boards will be needed.

Or why focusing on the camera as top priority is not wise in many ways.

This is why knowing what the image goals are is SO important.

As been said many, many times previous. All view cameras are a fixed set of trade-offs with none being ideal for every possible image goal as the camera is essentially a light tight box that is flexi in the center to support the lens and image recording device (film or digital imager).

If you're deep into hiking long distances for days on end, it would be wise to choose a lightweight field foldable with lightweight/small lens set with compact film holders and such then fully accepting the limitations and trade-offs of these image goals. If you're doing work in a studio set up with controlled lighting and absolute need for ease of camera control and all that a geared movement monorail is going to be far more effective, easier to use in many ways than struggling with a lightweight field foldable.


Bernice

Just be aware that a top hat board will offset the rear nodal point of the lens to be forward of the pivot point of the front standard. In practice this means tilts or swings of the front standard will also shift the image significantly, which will then need to be compensated for using counter-shift movements of the standards. Note that telephoto lens designs also inherently do this because their nodal point is in front of the lens rather than within it.

These factors are especially relevant to macro work, so if you plan to do a lot of that I would avoid a top hat board if you can.

[justlikeswimming]

Many thanks to everyone who has commented! At this point I think I'm leaning toward the sinar f2, there are some possible good deals out there within my budget. I'm a little worried about the weight, but I'm a tough old codger and think I can handle it for my typically 1-day in-an-out hikes. It'll be a while before I purchase (waiting for access to LFPF market, still shopping on ebay) and I may change my mind, but the possibility of having a somewhat portable camera that can offer so much control and even scale up to a larger format, well, I'm excited! Thanks again, all, really appreciate all your comments and welcome any other advice/comments! The search, and education, goes on!

[Bernice Loui]

Concerned about weight?
Sinar F weights about 6-7 pounds, Toyo 45FA, About 6.2 pounds, plus a whole lotta camera limitations, but does fold up into a box.
http://www.toyoview.com/Products/45AII/45AII.html

Camera should not be the prime focus of weight. Add up the weight of lenses, film holders, dark cloth, tripod and all related to what is required to make LF images, one extra pound in the camera within the overall is not significant.

Keep in mind, weight in the proper places means stability and vibration reduction. IMO, too many focus too much of the weight and "portability of the camera" while losing focus on the overall needs of view camera image making.

As to the Sinar F2, know the difference between the F, F+, F1.


The F2 has front focus and different movement lock controls.


Noted in the Sinar F2 flyer:
https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00396/00396.pdf

Folding up an F2 with a Norma rail clamp.


As noted in the Sinar instruction book:



Bernice

Many thanks to everyone who has commented! At this point I think I'm leaning toward the sinar f2, there are some possible good deals out there within my budget. I'm a little worried about the weight, but I'm a tough old codger and think I can handle it for my typically 1-day in-an-out hikes. It'll be a while before I purchase (waiting for access to LFPF market, still shopping on ebay) and I may change my mind, but the possibility of having a somewhat portable camera that can offer so much control and even scale up to a larger format, well, I'm excited! Thanks again, all, really appreciate all your comments and welcome any other advice/comments! The search, and education, goes on!

[CreationBear]

At this point I think I'm leaning toward the sinar f2, there are some possible good deals out there within my budget.

Ha, don't hate on us when you're thrashing through a rhododendron hell with sweat in your eyes and pecker gnats in your ears... (In truth, I think you'll find Sinars not much heavier, only more bulky, than other cameras in the same format.)

As I mentioned, I don't have nearly the experience that Bernice and others have with Sinars, but I'll throw out a few thoughts:

-- I haven't handled an F2, but I think there's a consensus that the Norma is a bit more rugged, if only for its all-metal construction. I suspect also its form factor is a bit more compact.

-- As for vendors, the auction site wouldn't be my first choice, since any Sinar you'll buy will likely be half a century old, with a number of moving parts that may or may not have had an adequate CLA.

-- If you do find yourself investing the Sinar ecosystem, the Sinar pan/tilt head comes highly recommended.

-- Remember that Sinars are eminently adaptable (not to mention addictive): you could get, say, a 4x5 to start your journey, then add 5x7 and/or 8x10 format change kits as you go along.

[justlikeswimming]

Thanks so much Bernice, CreationBear, Neil and jnantz for taking the time to educate me about LF. If I can ask another question, where is a good site to purchase a sinar? As I mentioned earlier, I'm an ebayer (for good and bad) and came across this norma https://www.ebay.com/itm/26538297692...8AAOSwDsVhT7z6 that may or may not be something to consider. I've found some F2s on ebay as well.

I really do appreciate you folks! On my brief hike for photos this weekend (packing my MF gear) I was dreaming about how much more could be done with LF. One part of the trail was very steep, slick and hazardous (did fine) but I was thinking 'can I do this with an extra 10 -15 lbs - you bet!' I am stoked, folks, ready to go! Now where is that camera!!!

[jnantz]

Thanks so much Bernice, CreationBear, Neil and jnantz for taking the time to educate me about LF. If I can ask another question, where is a good site to purchase a sinar?
I am stoked, folks, ready to go! Now where is that camera!!!

Sorry I can't really help you there, I know nothing about Sinars other than when I was looking to buy a LF camera I couldn't afford one!
I remember the sales guy at the local shop chewing my boss' ear off about the geared rise and fall and all the other lovely things it was capable of doing.
In the end I just got something that worked and didn't worry about all the bells and whistles.
Good luck finding your new toy!
John