Ilford Cooltone FB

[esearing]

I never got the "cool" blueish tones out of ICt the way Agfa Brovira and Oriental Segul papers did in the 1980's. It turns really purple in Selenium for me, though I remember reading somewhere that someone got a mix of blue and purple tones along with a contrast boost. When I want slightly colder tones I use Bergger VC Glossy and fresh 130, but its pricey for not much difference than the Ilford MGFB classic Glossy and sometimes hard to find.

[John Layton]

I only use Cooltone FB rarely...but for certain subjects I find it very effective:


Cooltone FB in Moersch SE-6

[Michael R]

I never got the "cool" blueish tones out of ICt the way Agfa Brovira and Oriental Segul papers did in the 1980's. It turns really purple in Selenium for me, though I remember reading somewhere that someone got a mix of blue and purple tones along with a contrast boost. When I want slightly colder tones I use Bergger VC Glossy and fresh 130, but its pricey for not much difference than the Ilford MGFB classic Glossy and sometimes hard to find.

One thing you can do is get some PMT (which is also the active ingredient in Moersch Finisher Blue). Add small amounts to any print developer and you get cold blue-black. Depending on how pronounced you want the shift to be, generally the warmer tone papers tend to change most. Tiny amounts can be used to just tweak or “neutralize” papers like MG Classic etc.

[Drew Wiley]

The only paper I've ever gotten a blue-black out of, without blue toning per se, was Polygrade V combined with a special MQ developer I brewed up for that exact purpose. I wouldn't call the ole DuPont papers or Brovira, or certainly not Oriental Seagull, blue-black papers, even using amidol developer. Azo could shift that direction. I have tweaked Bergger Neutral tone to a rich neutral black, and several other "neutral tone" papers too, which otherwise trend a bit warm.

The Bergger product jumps off the diving board into DMax a little faster than Cooltone does, more reminiscent of Seagull G but without that same image tone. I'm about to try Foma VC Neutral tone FB paper, which sounds somewhat flexible.

Ilford Cooltone just shot through the roof in price; so I need a workaround. And Classic just doesn't satisfy me the way MGWT does when I want to go warm.

[interneg]

One thing you can do is get some PMT (which is also the active ingredient in Moersch Finisher Blue). Add small amounts to any print developer and you get cold blue-black. Depending on how pronounced you want the shift to be, generally the warmer tone papers tend to change most. Tiny amounts can be used to just tweak or “neutralize” papers like MG Classic etc.

Ilford Multigrade developer also uses PMT from what I recall - not that I'd expect the incredibly precious defenders of Ansco 130 to accept that 130 is pretty chemically questionable (or at least reflective of the problems of an era of less precise formulation & chemical knowledge) given what is now known about developer components - and that Ilford did a lot of research in the 1990s into how to make significantly warmer and cooler results via specific developer alterations. Either way, MGCT is noticeably cold in Multigrade and can be made much colder.

[Drew Wiley]

The key ingredient of 130 is glycin. And 130 is NOT as cold tone developer, although you can tweak it a little cooler by increasing the hydroquinone and substituting benzotrizole for the KBr restrainer; but that pretty much spoils the look 130 is prized for. Rather, it's the warming effect of 130 when combined with a cold gold toner like GP-1 which creates a deep neutral black. Again, the proof is in the pudding, including with respect to MG Cooltone, which simply doesn't go truly black otherwise in my experience. Alternative MQ and PQ cold tone developers just lend that annoying greenish-inflected Dektol look to it.

[Michael R]

Ilford Multigrade developer also uses PMT from what I recall - not that I'd expect the incredibly precious defenders of Ansco 130 to accept that 130 is pretty chemically questionable (or at least reflective of the problems of an era of less precise formulation & chemical knowledge) given what is now known about developer components - and that Ilford did a lot of research in the 1990s into how to make significantly warmer and cooler results via specific developer alterations. Either way, MGCT is noticeably cold in Multigrade and can be made much colder.

I seem to remember some old SDSs for both Moersch SE3 and SE6 indicating PMT but that was a long time ago and the current SDSs for those developers do not list it - although that doesn’t mean much. In any case it’s a simple way to turn papers cold/blue-black by direct development without toning so I often mention it in threads that get into cold tones. I’ve never been able to dig anything definitive up regarding what path Ilford/Harman chose for the old Cooltone developer. There are hints but nothing certain.

[interneg]

I seem to remember some old SDSs for both Moersch SE3 and SE6 indicating PMT but that was a long time ago and the current SDSs for those developers do not list it - although that doesn’t mean much. In any case it’s a simple way to turn papers cold/blue-black by direct development without toning so I often mention it in threads that get into cold tones. I’ve never been able to dig anything definitive up regarding what path Ilford/Harman chose for the old Cooltone developer. There are hints but nothing certain.

I think the clues tend to suggest that PMT for cold, modified phenidones/ blends of phenidones for warm were the outcome of the research - along with hints about where ascorbates could be exploited. And as PMT is a routinely used emulsion additive anyway, it would not surprise me in the least if Ilford added the right amount of it (or similar categories of addenda) to MGCT that will synergise with Multigrade developer to deliver a visibly cold tone. I could be wrong, but didn't the CT developer from Ilford fall off the market before FBCT came to market?

What is interesting is the way you can track where Moersch seems to have derived quite a few of his formulae from, especially in the patent record - and where he deviates from the more solidly grounded science.

The key ingredient of 130 is glycin. And 130 is NOT as cold tone developer, although you can tweak it a little cooler by increasing the hydroquinone and substituting benzotrizole for the KBr restrainer; but that pretty much spoils the look 130 is prized for. Rather, it's the warming effect of 130 when combined with a cold gold toner like GP-1 which creates a deep neutral black. Again, the proof is in the pudding, including with respect to MG Cooltone, which simply doesn't go truly black otherwise in my experience. Alternative MQ and PQ cold tone developers just lend that annoying greenish-inflected Dektol look to it.

If Glycin really had the effects that people claim, it would be widely available. Instead, it's pretty obvious that the right PQ balance, alkalinity and choice of restrainers are far more effective. I can tell you that MG Cooltone delivers a properly chilly cold black in Ilford Multigrade with visually excellent Dmax, all of which are clearly obvious under an array of lighting conditions including ones that comply with reference standards (and interestingly it can be made to go chillier still with selenium, before it goes purple). Given that you have stated elsewhere that you have not used Dektol since well before FBCT came to market, and that Multigrade developer has chemically significant variance from Dektol, and that Ilford will have used Multigrade as their reference while building FBCT, I think any reasonable person has very solid grounds for scepticism about your dismissal of anything other than the fetishistic cults of Ansco 130 and Amidol.

[Michael R]

I think the clues tend to suggest that PMT for cold, modified phenidones/ blends of phenidones for warm were the outcome of the research - along with hints about where ascorbates could be exploited. And as PMT is a routinely used emulsion additive anyway, it would not surprise me in the least if Ilford added the right amount of it (or similar categories of addenda) to MGCT that will synergise with Multigrade developer to deliver a visibly cold tone. I could be wrong, but didn't the CT developer from Ilford fall off the market before FBCT came to market?

Yes the CT developer was out of production for several years before FBCT came along. There was Ilford MG Cooltone RC paper during the CT developer era, but I don’t know if that paper was the same as the current version. Ilford’s instructions for using the CT developer with the CT RC paper were quite specific: Development times were longer than for the other RC papers (along with a longer indicated induction time) and the stated throughput capacity of CT developer was substantially reduced when paired with the CT paper versus other RC papers.

After CT developer was discontinued people on APUG kept asking Simon Galley for the formula. He eventually did raise the topic at Harman but the answer came back that it could not be disclosed mostly for IP reasons - one of the ingredients was a proprietary compound made in house by Harman R&D.

[esearing]

where does one buy PMT (PhenylMercaptoTetrazole) ? I once got a blue tone with contaminated LPD + Selenium (or possibly Thiourea) in a second bath tray, but I never tried to replicate it. I have been wanting to try Moersch Blue Toner just to see what it does, especially with Foma papers which have a weird color to start with.