Relevance of zone system when scanning

[DmaalaM]

Hello,

I'm just getting into large format. I know that the zone system placed exposures in the 10 zones. Exposed for the shadows and developed for the highlights, which should make a dense neg. That should give ansel the flexibility to make everything he wanted, sort of like a raw file. BUT, how does this transfer over when digitally scanning on an epson lets say? Is it even a good idea to do this if scanning or would a different technique be better?

Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum, didn't quite know which one to use.

[Bruce Watson]

Do some searching. There was a huge discussion over a number of threads about 15 years ago or so.

Bottom line (for me anyway) is that when used with chemical darkroom printing, a film negative is an intermediary. It lets you shoehorn the dynamic range of the scene to fit the dynamic range of the printing paper. That's really what the Zone System is about -- how to do that effectively and efficiently. And there are three major pieces to the pie: exposure, film development, and printing.

In the scanning workflow, there are really four major pieces to the pie: exposure, film development, scanning the film, and printing. This extra step of scanning lets you unload one of the major uses of film in the darkroom printing workflow -- the act of shoehorning the usually larger dynamic range of the scene to the usually smaller dynamic range of the darkroom printing paper. This is done instead using an image editor like Photoshop as part of the scanning step (or the printing step if you like that better).

So... the major controls of the darkroom workflow are exposure and film development. It all comes down to "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights". That's what the Zone System primarily teaches -- how to get the right exposure, and how to get the right highlight density.

The major control with a scanning workflow is exposure. Scanning workflows often come down to "expose for the shadows and let the highlights fall where they may". It took me a lot of work and years of experience to reduce it to that. But it works for me.

I detailed it a lot and defended it a lot back in the early 2000s. Lots of to-ing and fro-ing that doesn't need to be rehashed here. I'm sure the old timers (like me) are still sick of it.

[Alan Klein]

I don;t know about the zone system. However, I do scan film with an Epson V600 flat bed scanner. You want to capture the full range of the negative or chrome. So first, do not let the scanner automatically set the scan. Manually set the black and white points (levels) so that they are just past the ends of the histogram. That will prevent clipping. It will allow you to capture the full range of the data. Make all adjustment afterwards with your post processing program. Where to set the various tones related to the final print paper you use is another subject.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I don;t know about the zone system. However, I do scan film with an Epson V600 flat bed scanner. You want to capture the full range of the negative or chrome. So first, do not let the scanner automatically set the scan. Manually set the black and white points (levels) so that they are just past the ends of the histogram. That will prevent clipping. It will allow you to capture the full range of the data. Make all adjustment afterwards with your post processing program. Where to set the various tones related to the final print paper you use is another subject.

I simply scan my negatives as wysiwyg. Ie, I make linear raw tiffs of the film. I do zero manipulation with the scanner other than maybe a brightness setting, but I find that doesn't really help. I do the same for the positives, but playing with how well the scanner can handle that. I do all of my actual conversions, etc in PS. Even if scan is from a drum scanner. I want the linear raw tiff so the formula is not baked in which could force me to rescan a negative if it does come out right letting the scanner do the conversion.

[Alan9940]

I've been using a simple version of the Zone System for 40 years and scanning my B&W film for 20 years. IMO, any "system" can be used when scanning B&W film because this film won't tax the dynamic range of most scanners. Chrome film is another story, though.

[Alan Klein]

I've been using a simple version of the Zone System for 40 years and scanning my B&W film for 20 years. IMO, any "system" can be used when scanning B&W film because this film won't tax the dynamic range of most scanners. Chrome film is another story, though.

How do you scan chromes relative to the zone system that another person would do differently without using the zone system?

[Alan9940]

How do you scan chromes relative to the zone system that another person would do differently without using the zone system?

I don't shoot color. My point was that any method of B&W exposure/development should easily be handled by any scanner.

[Alan Klein]

I don't shoot color. My point was that any method of B&W exposure/development should easily be handled by any scanner.

How do you scan BW negatives using the zone system that another person would do differently without using the zone system? Isn't just the development process that follows the zone system? But the scan procedure just catches the whole range of the negative like anyone else who scans without the zone system in mind. Unless you adjust the scan settings a special way?

[Alan9940]

How do you scan BW negatives using the zone system that another person would do differently without using the zone system? Isn't just the development process that follows the zone system? But the scan procedure just catches the whole range of the negative like anyone else who scans without the zone system in mind. Unless you adjust the scan settings a special way?

The zone system is used for visualization during image capture and planning for subsequent film development. It has absolutely nothing to do with scanning. For many years now, I scan to a 16-bit linear file and convert in PS using the ColorPerfect plugin.

[Alan Klein]

The zone system is used for visualization during image capture and planning for subsequent film development. It has absolutely nothing to do with scanning. For many years now, I scan to a 16-bit linear file and convert in PS using the ColorPerfect plugin.

Someone mentioned that they scan by the zone system. I questioned that. I thought the zone system was set up to effect the chemical process of printing the photo.

So my question now is, does using the zone system have no point if you're scanning and printing digitally? Just capture a photo that captures the full range of zones. Does that make sense to you?