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Thread: Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

  1. #21

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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    There actually is an international standard for calibrating meters--ISO
    2720-1974, but I don't know to what extent manufacturers follow it. The
    equation that Rob mentioned is the basic calibration equation used in that
    standard. As far as I know, Minolta and Pentax use K=14, and Sekonic use
    K=12.5 (a difference of a sixth of a step). The standard calls for
    calibration at 4700 K, but few manufacturers seem follow this
    recommendation. I think most use a CIE A illuminant (2854 K); in any
    event, many authorized service centers use a Kyoritsu or similar tester
    with a 2854 K light source. I'm not sure the calibration color temperature
    is the main issue, for reasons I discuss later.

    Calibration to a given reflectance is a myth. A reflected-light meter is
    calibrated by aiming it at a surface of known luminance, usually
    transilluminated; there is no reflectance involved. It's possible to speak
    of reflectance when comparing incident- and reflected-light meters. If you
    refer to ISO 2720 and do the math, a reflected-light with K=14 and an
    incident-light meter with C=250 (flat sensor) should agree when reading an
    18% reflectance.

    In practice, this isn't always case; the difference may arise partially
    from specular reflections from a test card, and there may be some issues
    with calibration, especially with incident-light meters. If incident-light
    meters are calibrated according to ISO 2720, and one believes
    manufacturers' stated values for C (typically, 250 for flat receptors, and
    330-340 for hemispherical receptors), the meters should give noticeably
    different readings when aimed at a point source with the different
    receptors. Informal tests that I've done comparing several Minolta and
    Sekonic meters don't show nearly the difference that I would expect.
    Inquiries to Minolta and Sekonic got nowhere; in fact, no one seemed to
    have the slightest idea of what I was talking about. I've pretty much
    resigned myself to accept the discrepancies between the behavior I expect
    and the behavior I see as one of life's mysteries ...

    A far greater issue than minor differences in nominal calibration is the
    differing spectral responses of different manufacturers' meters. Some
    years ago, I noticed incredible differences (something 3-4 steps) between
    an (unmodified) Pentax V and a Minolta Flashmeter III under low-pressure
    sodium light. I had the responses of the two meters measured. The
    difference was considerable: the Minolta was fairly narrow, resembling that
    of the 1932 CIE standard observer, while that of the Pentax was quite
    broad, with considerable sensitivity to UV and IR.

    Admittedly, nearly monochromatic sodium light isn't typical photographic
    illumination, but I've found that even if the two meters agreed at one
    color temperature, they may not agree under different conditions.

    It's outrageous that a thread like this ever should be necessary. I've
    always been frustrated by the lack of agreement among different meters; a
    good luminance photometer, such as a Minolta LS-100 or LS-110, has a
    response very close to that of the CIE standard observer. Admittedly,
    these meters are quite expensive, and the CIE observer isn't quite the
    response that one would prefer for film, but I don't see why it should be
    that difficult to get reasonable agreement to a standard that roughly
    corresponds to that of a typical film. This indeed was one of the
    objectives of the Zone VI-modified Pentax meter. I've never had the
    response of my Zone VI Pentax digital measured, but it seems fairly close
    to that of my unmodified Pentax V except when reading through orange or red
    filters.

    I discuss meter calibration more extensively at

    http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/conrad-meter-cal.pdf

  2. #22

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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    Graeme.... I am not sure this is right. My understanding is, the incident dome diffuses the light source and the photo cell reads the intensity. That value is displayed.

    Whereas with the spot meter, the light intensity is read by the photo cell, then it's displayed value is adjusted to account for the reflectivity value the meter maker programmed it for. Right?

  3. #23

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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    Jeff, amazing pdf file.... you should be the one designing meters! I did not want this to consume my life :-)

    Is my assumptions correct for making any meter calibrated to a specific film? Test at all light levels you will shoot in, at all color tempertures, evaluate processed film, make a cheat sheet for the field. In the field, use your color meter first, then the light meter, adjust light meter readings according to your chart.

    This of course takes into account the non linear nature of the meters as I described above. I am not sure I will go through all this, but for starters, would you say I am on the right track?

    TYIA

  4. #24

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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    For me, there is no perfect exposure in a way, even if a meter would give it, or at least it sometimes seems difficult to imagine how this could be. How fortunate when one needs no adjustment for contrast control, local lab processing line and volume, or one's personal workflow - or has a light meter to get this all right.

    I have a Minolta Spotmeter F, which was delivered quite a bit off from general reality. My Sekonic L358 arrived dialed in to what seems the most accurate of any meter I've tried. So, I calibrated the Spotmeter against it using a gray card, and they both agree perfectly now. Not very scientific, but it works. Since getting the inexpensive Sekonic, I shoot both sides less for exposure change but rather in case a shot I really like gets munched in processing, or to have a spare to play with alt. process while keeping the other pristine.

    Anyone thought of making a light metering probe and/or dome for a palm type computer? It would be a real joy to have everything from reciprocity and film curve data through desired end processing parameters built-in to the meter. Seems like those little computers cost less than some light meters.

  5. #25

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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    Bill,

    I'd never be able to bring myself to undertake even a fraction of what you
    suggest. In theory, it might be a good start, but it would seem difficult
    arrange the all of the desired color temperatures, and I'm still not sure
    you'd have it covered, especially when reading objects of different
    spectral reflectance. I can take readings of an object with either of my
    Pentax meters (which usually agree within about 1/3 step), and have them
    agree with a reading using a spot attachment for my Minolta Autometer IV-F,
    and then go to a different object in the same lighting and have the Minolta
    reading differ by 2/3 step ... I think it likely that at least one of the
    readings is wrong.

    I'd try to handle nonlinearity by having the meter calibrated periodically,
    and noting any nonlinearities that could not be handled in the calibration.
    You might need to ask the service facility to give you a calibration sheet,
    but they usually only test 4 different levels, so recording actual vs.
    indicated levels really isn't that difficult.

    Handling the spectral sensitivity isn't quite so simple, and I don't know
    if there's really a solution. Fortunately, both my main and backup meters
    are from the same manufacturer, so they're usually reasonably close.

    If I actually designed meters, I'm sure I'd see the big picture and
    understand why it's impossible to have any two agree ;-). I'd also
    probably realize that spectral response curves could be dangerous in the
    hands of untrained riffraff ...

  6. #26
    blanco_y_negro
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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    Interesting, enjoyable and informative thread... That said, and no offense meant, if I hadn't been taking photographs for a long time, or if I hadn't known anything about photography, reading this thread would certainly have discouraged me from starting it.. I'm not criticising anybody for discussing these issues; I'm just amused because what I've been taking for granted so far seems to bother some of us. There are so many variables in photography that, in my opinion, it's much better to forget about making it an exact science in the field and instead to concentrate on some optimal solution based on individual tests and common experience. Most of the time doesn't this give you the results you want? Is there any photographer who hits the target at 12 100% of the time?

    Bill G - Don't want to sound like a smart aleck but wouldn't it be a simpler solution to carry a spare battery(or even 2) for backing up your Gossen? That's what I do..

    Cheers..

  7. #27

    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    Actually Bill, your problem is easily solvable. Buy a second Sekonic meter and you'll be in the heaven you're looking for.

  8. #28

    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    Bill,

    Since you photographing in the field, there's a simple test to determine whether a meter is functioning properly. Set the meter EI indicator to 125, and in the reflected light mode meter clear blue northern skylight at noontime. The result should be the "sunny 16" rule... 1/125th at f/16 for EI 125. I've checked the result after calibrating meters using a Noritsu and it's accurate. If the meters don't give that reading, dial in a compensation factor for the EI. Just about all of your outdoor fill light is skylight, so temperature isn't much of a factor. To check linearity, do the same test using a stack of ND filters over the sensor. If either are off, consider recalibration. When using the incident mode, the Luna Pro should be aimed at the camera from the subject position... not at the light source which will give a higher than average reading. I don't use Sekonic.

    Mike

  9. #29

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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    A few basic points:

    The 18% of a grey card is 2.5 stops less than 100%.

    A K factor of 14 means 1 fourteenth which is 7.14% and a K factor of 12.5 is 8%. These are both a long way from 18%.

    The best colour temperature meter you have available to you is FILM. It is designed precisely to distinguish different colours.

    Reflected light will have a different colour temperature than the light falling on the subject. I.E. An incident meter capable of measuring colour temperature would be useless for metering reflected light subjects.

    Every part of the subject which has a different colour would require a different meter reading if it were based on colour temperature. Funny thing is that film is pretty good at dealing with this.

    Is middle grey 18% ? Only for a 5 stop range. For a 10 stop range zone V equates to 3% reflectance.

    7.14% (Minolta K factor 14) equates to mid point of approx 7.5 stop range.

    8% (Sekonic K Factor 12.5) equates to mid point of approx 7.5 stop range.

    Kodak Instructions on Using a Grey Card:

    “Position the grey card in front of and as close to the subject as possible. Aim the surface of the gray card toward a point one third of the compound angle between your camera and the main light. For example, if the main light is located 30 degrees to the side and 45 degrees up from the camera to subject axis, aim the card 10 degrees to the side and 15 degrees up.”
    Own up who carries a sextant with them to measure the angles correctly. LOL

    Why anyone would use a Kodak grey card for anything beats me although given what I have just said it occurs to me that it would provide a more consistent colour temperature across different lighting conditions. But you would need a reflected light meter for that!

  10. #30
    tim atherton's Avatar
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    Gossen vs. Sekonic meters - don't mix em

    "Set the meter EI indicator to
    125, and in the reflected light mode meter clear blue northern skylight
    at noontime. The result should be the "sunny 16" rule... 1/125th at f/16
    for EI 125. "

    hmm - that never worked for me in Tuktoyaktuk in January - or even in Yellowknife :-)
    You'd be amazed how small the demand is for pictures of trees... - Fred Astaire to Audrey Hepburn

    www.photo-muse.blogspot.com blog

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