NOOB Question About Close UP 4x5 LF Lenses

[gearhed]

Hello everyone,

I started a thread previously about a good large format camera. I went with the Sinar F 4x5 field camera on the monorail according to the suggestions. So, thanks to everyone on helping me with my first purchase.

First mistake I made was not extending the bellows fully and was not able to get focus with the Schneider Kreuznach 1:5,6/210 on a door across
a rather small office room. I am learning though.Here is the camera that I purchased off ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MINT-SINAR-...rdt=true&rt=nc

Now, my subject will be B&W and shot at a distance of about 1 foot away I am trying to fill the entire negative. I am filming multiple pieces of tree bark that are cut into sections that are 6x3 inches give or take.

Problem: The Schneider Kreuznach 1:5,6/210 lens does not seem to focus on objects this close at all.

Question: What is a suitable lens for close up flat surfaces that that can focus easily? I want the camera as close as possible for the detail and for the 6X3 bark
samples to fill the entire screen.

Again, thanks. You guys are a great at answering questions from new guys.

[Dan Fromm]

NOOB, this forum has resources that, as a newcomer, you might not be aware of. Go to the forum's parent site largeformatphotography.info and look in the FAQs.

There is a link to one of the more obscure resources in the first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography.i...mainly)-lenses discussion. The section "Books on closeup ..." lists several you should study before spending money on anything but them. Lefkowitz is probably best for you.

You may think I'm being mean by not answering your question directly. As it happens, I am mean. Very. But large format helps those who help themselves. Reading books is a better way to learn what you need to know than asking questions on a bulletin board like this. Some of the answers you'll get here will be correct and helpful if, usually, incomplete. Others will be dead wrong. It isn't clear that you know enough to tell the difference. A good book will give you more complete and safer answers than you can get here.

[Bob Salomon]

Do it correctly, a macro lens for LF like a 120 or 180 Apo Macro Sironar.

Do it with your lens, a longer bellows and an extension rail.

Depending on the magnification required the shorter lens will give you the most magnification but you might still require more bellows and rail.

BTW, if you need more bellows you will also need an auxiliary standard.

Your 210 is corrected for optimal performance at image ratios of 1:10 to infinity at f22.
The Apo Macro Sironars are corrected for optimal performance from 1:5 to 5:1 at f22.

[MusicalPhotog]

Problem: The Schneider Kreuznach 1:5,6/210 lens does not seem to focus on objects this close at all.

Question: What is a suitable lens for close up flat surfaces that that can focus easily? I want the camera as close as possible for the detail and for the 6X3 bark
samples to fill the entire screen.

Hi,

Nice camera; should serve you well for years to come.

So to your questions about LF macro... In LF photography, focusing is more about bellows extension than it is with lenses. So the more bellows 'draw' you have, the closer you can focus (in theory). (There are some limitations and pitfalls to watch for...like exposure compensation due to light loss from long bellows.)

Some lenses are better suited for "close-up" work than others. But the Schneider is a very nice lens, in a handy focal length that you may find lots of use for. At this point, I would suggest hanging on to it until you get a firm grasp on how you're going to use your new camera and what you're going to shoot. (BTW: I shoot landscapes, and I have 2 lenses in 210mm focal length; one of them a Schneider Symmar, like yours.)

And of course, we look forward to seeing what you come up with. :-D

[gearhed]

Dan,
Thanks for the link. Funny you mention the resources of this site as a starting point. Before posting this question, I read the entire Introduction to Lenses for Large Format Cameras, 2nd Edition by David Karp (not knowing it was linked here). This was the most direct and clean explanation of lenses that I have found after searching for a few hours. As many that are new know, the topic of lenses is vast and takes many directions. I got a basic understanding but there are still many questions before I can even snap my first photo to get a baseline to start leaning from.

I have researched many parts and pieces about LF and read the entire Sinar F manual and all of the information I could get my hands on about developing film. In the last 2 weeks, I have put many many hours into learning. I am putting in plenty of effort in to learn. This subject is.....DEEP. I am just trying to get a start here.

[gearhed]

Hi,

Nice camera; should serve you well for years to come.

So to your questions about LF macro... In LF photography, focusing is more about bellows extension than it is with lenses. So the more bellows 'draw' you have, the closer you can focus (in theory). (There are some limitations and pitfalls to watch for...like exposure compensation due to light loss from long bellows.)

Some lenses are better suited for "close-up" work than others. But the Schneider is a very nice lens, in a handy focal length that you may find lots of use for. At this point, I would suggest hanging on to it until you get a firm grasp on how you're going to use your new camera and what you're going to shoot. (BTW: I shoot landscapes, and I have 2 lenses in 210mm focal length; one of them a Schneider Symmar, like yours.)

And of course, we look forward to seeing what you come up with. :-D

Thanks!
I would love to hang onto the lens but I will probably need to let it go in order to justify another purchase so soon after the camera purchase.

I read that the lens is very connected to the bellows extension and they have a very direct correlation. Does it make sense to get a longer rail and longer bellows to accommodate the 210mm lens? I had them maxed out and 4-5 feet away seemed to be the closest object I could focus.This camera is all stock as far as I know. For the most part, I would like to set the camera up for close indoor shots at least until I get comfortable.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Did you mount the rail extension?

[gearhed]

Do it correctly, a macro lens for LF like a 120 or 180 Apo Macro Sironar.

Do it with your lens, a longer bellows and an extension rail.

Depending on the magnification required the shorter lens will give you the most magnification but you might still require more bellows and rail.

BTW, if you need more bellows you will also need an auxiliary standard.

Your 210 is corrected for optimal performance at image ratios of 1:10 to infinity at f22.
The Apo Macro Sironars are corrected for optimal performance from 1:5 to 5:1 at f22.

Bob,
Thank you so much for your clear concise answer. This gives me AT LEAST a starting point. Lenses are a steep learning curve when you are new in the Photography world.
Your answer is pretty much a headshot.

[gearhed]

Did you mount the rail extension?

Is that what that is? I feel silly for not knowing that. There was I thought simply an extra rail included in the purchase. I didn't know that was a rail extension.

[MusicalPhotog]

Thanks!
I would love to hang onto the lens but I will probably need to let it go in order to justify another purchase so soon after the camera purchase.

I read that the lens is very connected to the bellows extension and they have a very direct correlation. Does it make sense to get a longer rail and longer bellows to accommodate the 210mm lens? I had them maxed out and 4-5 feet away seemed to be the closest object I could focus.This camera is all stock as far as I know. For the most part, I would like to set the camera up for close indoor shots at least until I get comfortable.

Well getting a shorter lens as Bob suggested might be a good idea. But to add to some of Dan's points... jumping right into a challenging field like large format macro while still learning about large format in general will be difficult, to say the least. And there's only so much you can learn from books. I might suggest spending some quality time with your camera in a controlled environment. See what it can do and (more importantly) what you can do with it. There's just no substitution for real, hands-on experience.