Bergger Pancro 400 in Pyrocat-HD?

[Tim V]

It'd be pretty bizarre for a film sold as 400ISO to need to be shot with EI slower than 200 though, don't you think. I was cautious with my exposures as it was. I'll check the negatives out today now that they're dry to see how they print and scan. 400ISO does seem a very ambitious claim though...

Rather than try with PMK, what I might try next time is Pyrocat mixed 2:2:100.

EDIT: I'm not familiar with Bergger's old film or how it processed. I have been suspicious about their development times for Pancro 400 though, which are very long with every developer combination. I've emailed Bergger for the third time to see what they say regarding the fog, but I won't hold my breath waiting for a reply. They've not replied to anything else I've asked them. At the end of the day it's probably easier to just stick to what I know, which is a shame because I love Bergger's paper and was hoping Pancro might be of the same high quality and give me a slightly different look that I'm after. I also like to support the 'little guy'. The other possibility for it might be to try with Ber49 / Atomal 49 developer, but I'm not keen on buying another box and wasting time testing only to find I need to expose at 100ISO to get acceptable shadows. I'd sooner just shoot FP4+ or Adox CHS100II, which would both give vastly finer grain and sharpness.

[Tim V]

Showing base density / fog compared to same shot on HP5+...

[Tim V]

Brief update:

After printing the negatives I can’t say I’m keen to try another box... VERY flat and difficult to printer to base density / fog. Again, could be my slightly old box but I don’t think so.

I did process another 2 sheets with 2:2:100 dilution and they might be better overall although base fog was worse, but the HP5 negs were perfect so might not bother printing them.

On a side note, this is my first foray into Pyrocat after being a diehard PMK fan for quite some time. I must say they do print very differently with VC papers. I didn’t realise how much I was utilising and relying on the highlight compression of PNK. The HP5 in Pyrocat had harder highlights which made it more difficult to print as I’m used to. I guess I’m back to school...

Note: I’ve just edited this post as Bergger have replied to my email stating:

The Pancro400 has a slightly higher Dmin than other films on the market, because of its anti-halation layer which is very specific and powerful.

Depending on where you got your box of Pancro from, it is possible it has been X-rayed. That would explain a too high DMin.

Based on our experience, the DMin in non staining developer should be around 0,28.

We carried out some experiments with Pyrocat HD
Dilution 1+1+100
Température 24°C
Speed 200 : 17 minutes (contrast 0,65)
Speed 400 : 20 minutes (contrast 0,71)

[interneg]

Speed 200 : 17 minutes (contrast 0,65)
Speed 400 : 20 minutes (contrast 0,71)

That's rather significant. Usually 0.6-0.65 is the usual design range used for determining box speed - and pyrocat (because of the phenidone) is a speed gaining developer to begin with. In D-76 it might be 1/3-2/3 stop slower.

[Tim V]

That's the weird thing, as these times seem out of step with the other published developer combinations. Note the above for Pyrocat is spec'd at 24 degrees C., 17min if rated at EI200. That's a full 4min extra that what they state for PMK when shot at box speed. Does this seem out of whack to you?

[interneg]

That's the weird thing, as these times seem out of step with the other published developer combinations. Note the above for Pyrocat is spec'd at 24 degrees C., 17min if rated at EI200. That's a full 4min extra that what they state for PMK when shot at box speed. Does this seem out of whack to you?

Only other thing I can think of is that the emulsion might be poorly compatible with low solvency developers - look at the D-76 stock & 1+1 times - that's a big jump compared with many other 400 speed films. High solvency in the developer actually allows better access to the iodide in the emulsion, which produces better sharpness, thus potentially giving a better mix of sharpness & finer grain. It may also relate to why Ilford don't recommend deeper dilutions of various developers with Delta 3200 - though I also recall something about another aspect being insufficient to develop Delta 3200 to the correct G-bar when diluted 1+1.

[Tim V]

Thanks Interneg, that's interesting information. I must admit I'm not used to testing film like this, so all information and advise helps.

At the end of the day, I'm interested in this film because it might provide a viable alternative to other 400ISO options on the market. In terms of 8x10" sheets, there are only a few left!
I suspect however that it simply doesn't perform as intended with Pyrocat. I'm deeply suspicious of these times and temps needed to get to contrast 0,65-0,70. I thought PMK times seemed exceptionally long at 18mins @20 degrees, but the same time at 24 degrees for Pyrocat seems ridiculous! If I do end up buying another box, I'll try with BER49 or Berspeed. The latter is very hard to get hold of here, while the former is easy to source under the Adox brand. Alas, I don't have any more sheets to try. Might go to plan B and try with 120 film...

[interneg]

If I do end up buying another box, I'll try with BER49 or Berspeed. The latter is very hard to get hold of here, while the former is easy to source under the Adox brand.

Nothing I've seen about Berspeed suggests it's anything other than an ID-68/ Microphen variant - plain old D-76/ ID-11 might be a more telling test.

[Tim V]

With a clear head today I evaluated the fibre prints made from both the HP5 and Pancro negs, and to my surprise they were very similar with more detail on the extreme ends with Pancro. I worked harder to print the Pancro negs, but didn’t agonise over it, just used intuition. For HP5 it was a straight grade 2 print (I can’t recall time but have it written down), for Pancro about 20 secs grade 2.5 followed by a hit of about 5 seconds grade 5. Pancro was softer details with more subtle mid tones, and as I said slightly more detail on either end of the scale. The overall brightness was pretty matched, but the HP5 negs retrained more of the sharp look of the light, which was harsh mid-morning sun. Overall it might be a wash at contact print sizes, but grain is certainly larger with Pancro. Pancro certainly seems to have a more ‘vintage’ look.

Next i need to scan the negatives and prints.

[esearing]

Quite by accident I shot some Bergger 400 recently. I thought I only had FP4 in my bag. I meter at 100 so its presumably 2 stops over exposed. The scene was petrified tree roots at the beach on a cloudy day, EV ran from 11.9 to 16.9. Normal placement for me would have been zones 3-8. However with the shift of two stops I was at zones 5-10. I decided to process at my normal - 1 for FP4 knowing that B400 requires a bit longer to process so N-2 would probably be under developed. My developer is Pyrocat HD diluted 3:2:475 for 20 minutes with 3 agitation cycles. The resulting negative is dark as expected since most of the tones are light wood,sand, and sky, but I can see separation of tones in the root detail. It looks a bit flat to me with a heavy base fog. I'll have to print to know for sure if it maintained the mid-tone grays. When comparing it to overexposed under processed shots of FP4+ the tone of the negative is much darker and browner.