Waterhouse Stop Fabrication Alternatives in 2019?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Jay has made his goal clear but for one factoid: How much would he be willing to pay for WH stops?
He values his time, and so do the makers.

[Tin Can]

3 critters

Kidding Jay!

That's between the principles

Jay has made his goal clear but for one factoid: How much would he be willing to pay for WH stops?
He values his time, and so do the makers.

[Jac@stafford.net]

OK, last gasp. The OP could place an aperture of whatever mechanism at the very front of his lens. Too simple? For a rough-enough comparison, I think it is adequate and dirt cheap

[Soomuu]

Close. There are nuances that I haven’t communicated well. First, I am willing to pay. And, I prefer to pay get a set of permanent stops made than spend the time to make a set of temporary stops. Regarding my time, the older I get, the more critical I am about what I spend time on, i.e., I’d rather spend more time photographing, printing and doing other creative things. I also don’t like to spend time to do things twice.

The nuance is that I’m looking for a more affordable set of permanent stops that will do the job, but don’t have to be really high quality, i.e., think Chevrolet instead of Mercedes-Benz. Why? There are two reasons. First, I have several lenses that need stops and I haven’t decided whether to keep those lenses yet. And, I’d prefer not spend the amount of money necessary to have a really nice set of permanent brass stops made for a lens - particularly a lens that I need to shoot with stops in order to decide whether I’m going to keep the lens and use it for the next 20 years. Additionally, as long as the stops work, I’d be happy using a set of Delrin (or some other material) stops for the rest of my LF career. And, if I end up deciding to sell the lens, the stops should be valued added to a purchaser.

Second, is my mentality. I while I love traditional large format photography and alternative (historical) photographic printing, I am just fine with laser cutting and CNC machining technology helping make the replacement bits and pieces to keep my antique cameras and lens going and doing so most affordably.

Understood.

I too value my time and would also rather spend my time photographing, in the darkroom printing or doing something creative like yourself. When I made these stops I did not look at them as a waste of my time. I'm a hands on person and get satisfaction out of making and creating things by hand. These fall into that category. The stops I have made are not a temporary solution but rather a permanent alternative solution so I could stop down my lens if need be. They were cheap to make, they feel good and they serve their purpose.

I don't have any issues with things being made by CNC or machines either. I just don't have convenient access to one and it was much easier for me to make it by hand.

All in all, we should use which ever materials and methods that we feel are most suited to our wants and needs. This was just my way of making Waterhouse stops and I hope someone might find it useful.

[Jay Decker]

... How much would he be willing to pay for WH stops? ...

1. Didn’t start with a specific objective or expectation, just a gut feeling that newer technology should have proliferated enough to create lower cost alternatives for simple parts, like WHSs.

2. The first provider I contacted indicated that they should be able to provide Delrin WHSs on a turnkey basis for about half of what a set of high quality of brass stops would cost. So, I was looking at having to spend $1,000 - $1,200 for multiple sets of quality brass stops for my lenses. So, out of the box it is looking more like $500 to $600 for made to order Delrin stops for the same lenses - that works for me. But...

3. It appears that there is a spectrum of entry points to access laser cutting services, including electronic submital of a laser cutting job file where the parts are cut and mailed to you. I don’t know enough about this technology yet to know if some kind of software template could readily be created that would allow a regular person, not in the CNC world, to directly order WHSs with just a handful of measurements. I’m going to look into it with some help of folks that know that world.

[blue4130]

This would be a really easy thing to make in Fusion 360 and outsourced to any number of Chinese laser cutting factories. I have had 4 flat lens boards and two quite intricate panels (with text) cut and each one was less than $10 USD.

Fusion 360 is free for most applications and something like a waterhouse stop would take all of 5 minutes to draw.

[unimach]

1. Didn’t start with a specific objective or expectation, just a gut feeling that newer technology should have proliferated enough to create lower cost alternatives for simple parts, like WHSs.

2. The first provider I contacted indicated that they should be able to provide Delrin WHSs on a turnkey basis for about half of what a set of high quality of brass stops would cost. So, I was looking at having to spend $1,000 - $1,200 for multiple sets of quality brass stops for my lenses. So, out of the box it is looking more like $500 to $600 for made to order Delrin stops for the same lenses - that works for me. But...

3. It appears that there is a spectrum of entry points to access laser cutting services, including electronic submital of a laser cutting job file where the parts are cut and mailed to you. I don’t know enough about this technology yet to know if some kind of software template could readily be created that would allow a regular person, not in the CNC world, to directly order WHSs with just a handful of measurements. I’m going to look into it with some help of folks that know that world.

I know this is an old thread, but I felt I needed to chime in. I am a machinist by trade and I do a good bit of work locally for some large format photographers. I've made and modified lens flanges, lens boards, misc. hardware and even a modernized mount for an old camera to mount to a modern tripod. When dealing with laser cutting services, or any modern machine shop for that matter, understand that they make their money in repeat business. That is to say they are in the business of manufacturing things and the idea is the more pieces they produce the more money they make. In my opinion, $500 for delrin waterhouse stops is ridiculous money. $500 is outrageous for brass as a matter of fact. For example, I can purchase brass sheet in .125" thickness by 3" width by 12" length for $25 that should produce at least 4 stops based on the stops I've worked with in the past. Delrin on the other hand at the same thickness comes in a 12"x12" sheet for approximately half of the cost of brass.

I'm sure that's not a full spectrum of stop sizes, but enough to give me a good idea. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that time is valuable, and mine is too, but is it really $475 for about 3 hours of work. There are other things to consider, but I'd say no.

To manufacture stops, I need 5 dimensions and a sketch. Length, Width, Thickness, Hole Size, and Center of Hole. The sketch of course to point out details like the exact shape and finger grab details.

All of the stops I've worked with in the past the hole was centered, but I could see where the stop geometry could be such that a hole would be not centered.

So here are my thoughts. I have the equipment and can accurately measure to .0001" or .00254mm. I understand the math involved in determining hole sizes for a desired stop size, but without the lens for accurate measurement, I could not guarantee that a given hole size is actually correct for a given f/N. Would anyone here be willing to assume that risk? If its incorrect, I've not only wasted my time, but yours as well and I've produced parts that are unusable. I'm sure that given a known stop for any given lens would make the calculation much less risky, even easy for that matter, but how many lenses come with no stops?

I could produce a set of stops, assuming 7 stops in total for approximatley $250-300, depending on size and material choice, plus material, plus shipping. These would be unfinished, so a coat of paint would be necessary to compete them. The question is, can anyone give me the 5 dimensions I would need accurately? I'm genuinely curious to know.

[Greg]

I had a 13” f/8.6 RECT R J BECK brass lens that I needed to make 6 brass waterhouse stops for.
Previously made a set of them out of black cardboard and they worked fine till they accidentally got wet.
So... Bought a sheet of brass off eBAY
Cut up the brass sheet into smaller rectangular pieces
Clamped the sheets together and drew on the top sheet an outline of the waterhouse stops.
Roughly cut the sheets (clamped together) with a Dremel.
Filed the edges of the waterhouse stops (still clamped together in a vise)
Unclamped them and smooth the edges with fine sandpaper
Drilled the holes for the 6 f/stops and smooth the edges of the holes
Spray painted both sides with flat black paint.
Labeled the waterhouse stops
Took a total of 3 short evenings work in my basement "workshop"
Q.E.D.

[goamules]

I know this is an old thread, but I felt I needed to chime in. I am a machinist by trade and I do a good bit of work locally for some large format photographers. I've made and modified lens flanges, lens boards, misc. hardware and even a modernized mount for an old camera to mount to a modern tripod. When dealing with laser cutting services, or any modern machine shop for that matter, understand that they make their money in repeat business. That is to say they are in the business of manufacturing things and the idea is the more pieces they produce the more money they make. In my opinion, $500 for delrin waterhouse stops is ridiculous money. $500 is outrageous for brass as a matter of fact. For example, I can purchase brass sheet in .125" thickness by 3" width by 12" length for $25 that should produce at least 4 stops based on the stops I've worked with in the past. Delrin on the other hand at the same thickness comes in a 12"x12" sheet for approximately half of the cost of brass.

I'm sure that's not a full spectrum of stop sizes, but enough to give me a good idea. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that time is valuable, and mine is too, but is it really $475 for about 3 hours of work. There are other things to consider, but I'd say no.

To manufacture stops, I need 5 dimensions and a sketch. Length, Width, Thickness, Hole Size, and Center of Hole. The sketch of course to point out details like the exact shape and finger grab details.

All of the stops I've worked with in the past the hole was centered, but I could see where the stop geometry could be such that a hole would be not centered.

So here are my thoughts. I have the equipment and can accurately measure to .0001" or .00254mm. I understand the math involved in determining hole sizes for a desired stop size, but without the lens for accurate measurement, I could not guarantee that a given hole size is actually correct for a given f/N. Would anyone here be willing to assume that risk? If its incorrect, I've not only wasted my time, but yours as well and I've produced parts that are unusable. I'm sure that given a known stop for any given lens would make the calculation much less risky, even easy for that matter, but how many lenses come with no stops?

I could produce a set of stops, assuming 7 stops in total for approximatley $250-300, depending on size and material choice, plus material, plus shipping. These would be unfinished, so a coat of paint would be necessary to compete them. The question is, can anyone give me the 5 dimensions I would need accurately? I'm genuinely curious to know.

Good to know there is someone available, thanks for joining. Would you be able to make flanges accurately? We all need those, and the threads are all over the map and 100 years of different types.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Material for Waterhouse stops

Delrin - I am not sure that black Delrin is opaque enough for a Waterhouse stop. A 2mm thick sheet is not opaque to infrared, if that is important.