New Monorail, a Toho rip-off ?

[Dean Tomasula]

"The Shen Hao camera is an unauthorized copy (counterfiet) of the original product."

At the risk of getting back on topic here, do we know this for sure? Has anyone contacted Shen-Hao and/or Toho to find out if the alleged Shen-Hao monorail is a counterfeit Toho. Isn't it possible it's a licensed copy? Or are we going to take the word of the one (and apparently still only) dealer in the world who sells this camera.

BTW, Shen-Hao updated their web site. They've included a page with their new 8x10 camera, but curiously, no monorail.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Or are we going to take the word of the one (and apparently still only) dealer in the world who sells this camera.

Dean,

Are you calling the folks at Robert White liars? They seem to be the only ones with first hand knowledge of this product. They certainly know where they are getting it. They said they are getting it from Shen Hao and that it's an unauthorized copy of the Toho. As I have seen no evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to suspect they are lying.

BTW, Shen-Hao updated their web site. They've included a page with their new 8x10 camera, but curiously, no monorail.

Yes, but they still have information on the supposedly discontinued non-folding Ebony clone - click on the "Professional Accessory" link and scroll down for phots and specs on this supposedly discontinued product.

Kerry

[Bob Salomon]

"The entire system seems designed to confuse the consumer. If the selling price is ALWAYS less than the list price, why even have a list price? "

A manufacturer or distributor can not tell a dealer what price the item must be sold at. Talk to your government if you want to change that.

[Dean Tomasula]

"It is definitely a Shen Hao. Like many things in this world it is a Chinese 'version' of the Toho. "

Kerry,

They never said to me that they got it from Shen-Hao and they never said it was an unlicensed copy of the Toho.

They could be mistaken.

[Nick_3536]

The only difference between grey market is people don't think the rights of the legal importer matter. That's it. You can dance around the issue. If somebody pulled a work print out of your trash and turned around and sold it for 10% less then you do it would be no different. Some one would be saving 10% in return for getting a lesser product. Most companies know that they're selling a complete product including after sales support. Grey market products that don't provide the same level of service hurt the company. Every time a grey market buyer doesn't get proper after sales support who do you think gets a bad name? They undercut a companies ability to provide service. Isn't this thread basically about companies not being to provide R&D etc because of knock offs? No difference.

Kerry you're claiming Robert White is selling an illegal copy. You think that a company that would import and sell an illegal copy is above lying? From what is known so far the only people we know who might be breaking the law is Robert White. For all we know the product was commisioned by Robert White and built to thier specs.

[Dean Tomasula]

Does no one else find it odd that the only dealer of Shen-Hao cameras apparently in the world that has this camera is Robert White? Who doesn't Badger know about it? Why isn't it on the Shen-Hao web site?

"The Shen Hao clone of the Toho FC-45X being discussed in this thread is a TOTALLY different scenario. The Shen Hao camera is an unauthorized copy (counterfiet) of the original product. This discussion isn't about pre or post sales support, or gray market vs. factory authorized distribution. The Shen Hao SR45-II is not made in the same factory by the same people as the Toho FC-45X. It is not even made in the same country. Toho gets no proceeds from the sale of the SR45-II. In fact, for every SR45-II that is sold, they potentially lose a sale of a FC-45X."

I have seen no evidence of this. Where's your proof? Do you know for sure it is an unlicensed copy? Do you know for sure it is not made in the same factory? Is there any evidence of wrongdoing here, or is this just more Shen-Hao bashing? No one has even taken the time to try to find out the answers to these questions, instead they are quick to label Shen-Hao criminals.

Let's try a novel expirement. How about someone in Dorset in the UK take a stroll into Robert White and actually look at the camera in person. See if there is a Shen-Hao label on it anywhere. Take a good look and see if it is in fact a detail-for-detail copy of the Toho. Everyone here is working form a single photograph on the web, not the actual camera.

[Ken Lee]

How about if someone who speaks Chinese, give Shen-Hao a call ?

Or someone who speaks Japanese, call up Toho ?

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

They never said to me that they got it from Shen-Hao and they never said it was an unlicensed copy of the Toho.

Jeez Dean, in your rush to defend Shen Hao, you seem to have totally ingnored Bruce's post above. Bruce did email Robert White to ask them about thios new Shen Hao Toho clone, and since you missed their response to him, here it is again:

"Another data point. I emailed Robert White about this, and got an email reply from Mark Sampson, a Robert White employee I presume.

He says that this is definitely a Shen Hao, and that the Shen Hao copy is not made under license."

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Or someone who speaks Japanese, call up Toho ?

I don't speak Japanese, but I did just send Toho an email asking if the SR45-II being sold by Robert White is an licensed copy of their FC-45X. Give the language difference, time difference and the fact the it's the weekend, I don't expect a response for a few days. When I get it, I'll post what I learned (one way or the other).

Kerry

[Dean Tomasula]

Actually Kerry, I didn't miss it. I got a reply from Mark Sampson as well, but he failed to mention these two points to me. He told me it was a Shen-Hao and a Chinese copy. He never mentioned anything about it being licensed or not. It seems to odd to me that a reputable dealer would be so quick to promote and sell an unlicensed copy of a legitimate product. Not only that, but to openly admit that they are selling a counterfeit copy seems suspect.

Look, my point is that this whole deal sounds fishy to me. Here we have a camera that is called a Shen-Hao, but no one knows about it, not even Shen-Hao. Only one dealer has it and they admit that it is a counterfeit. It looks for all the world like a detail-by-detail copy of a Toho, but no one has actually seen one in person yet. If Shen-Hao has been ripping off field camera designs for years, why start with a monorail now? Have they run out of field cameras to copy?

No one has yet provided proof that this is in fact a Shen-Hao camera. It may very well be a Shen-Hao. It could be a legitimate, licensed knockoff, or it could be a blatant counterfeit. But no one here knows for sure yet. Unless someone here is an employee of Shen-Hao, or Toho, we have no way of knowing the truth until Toho sues Shen-Hao for intellectual property theft, Shen-Hao suddenly pulls the camera from the market, or Shen-Hao more widely distributes the camera and it makes it way to other dealers. Then we can actually see one in person and judge whether or not it is a Toho clone.

Yes, Kerry, I do defend Shen-Hao every chance I get. Apparently there are very few of us fans out here. There seem to be plenty of detractors though. But I am not blindly defending the company. If they are proven to be counterfeiters (and by proof I mean real, hard facts, not just the anti-Chinese, anti-Shen-Hao, 'gee their cameras look just like XYZ's cameras' B.S. that passes for proof here) then I'll have to rethink my loyalty to the company. If someone can show me that Shen-Hao's X camera is exactly like Y camera and there is no licensing agreement between Shen-Hao and the other company, or the other company's camera is protected under patent and is not in the public domain, then I'll have to admit Shen-Hao is not operating above board. Until then, I'll remain in the minority here and defend them when necessary.

Yes, I know, I'm a stubborn S.O.B.