Comments on the Sinar P?

[Indranath Neogy]

Anybody have any comments on the Sinar P 4x5? I've seen one for sale, but I'm unable to find any specifications on it. Also what's the accessory compatibility with the current line of Sinar stuff and is there much stuff available second hand?

thanks,

Indy.

[Theodoros]

Sinar P,P2,P3 & X series of cameras is (by far) the world's most sold camera for professional use... The base of existing cameras exceeds 100K units worldwide and is by far ahead from the next runner up. As far as accessories available for it, one can have a look at ebay... the list is endless and prices (obviously because of the wide availability) are the most sensible around... In reality there is no competition for value to quality ratio. The drawback of the system is that most gear rails are made out of hard plastic (inexcusable) and thus are prone to wear under heavy use (at least they are replaceable and not necessarily from Sinar's dealers services).

The camera is among the best to have for yaw free operation and even if there are yaw errors, those are less than with competition. The movements and the size of them are on the top of the ladder, it even allows for one to convert the angle of the standards with respect to the rail, for cases where the rail is angled towards the subject. Another advantage is the "focus throw" that is only of 16mm for a full 360 degrees turn of the focusing knob, making it one of the most desirable cameras ever for one to nail focus even on the most demanding situations... Proceed.

[Bob Salomon]

Sinar P,P2,P3 & X series of cameras is (by far) the world's most sold camera for professional use... The base of existing cameras exceeds 100K units worldwide and is by far ahead from the next runner up. As far as accessories available for it, one can have a look at ebay... the list is endless and prices (obviously because of the wide availability) are the most sensible around... In reality there is no competition for value to quality ratio. The drawback of the system is that most gear rails are made out of hard plastic (inexcusable) and thus are prone to wear under heavy use (at least they are replaceable and not necessarily from Sinar's dealers services).

The camera is among the best to have for yaw free operation and even if there are yaw errors, those are less than with competition. The movements and the size of them are on the top of the ladder, it even allows for one to convert the angle of the standards with respect to the rail, for cases where the rail is angled towards the subject. Another advantage is the "focus throw" that is only of 16mm for a full 360 degrees turn of the focusing knob, making it one of the most desirable cameras ever for one to nail focus even on the most demanding situations... Proceed.

Where did you get your yaw information? Many cameras are yaw free when positioned normally, the Linhof Kardan prototype being the first yaw free camera.
Any camera with the swing point positioned above the tilt point is always yaw free in its upright position.
Any camera that is normally yaw prone when in its upright position becomes yaw free when swung sideways
90°.

There is absolutely no way to tell in a finished shot if it was made in a yaw prone or a yaw free camera. In fact there is no way to tell if a shot was made with a Sinar, a Linhof, a Toyo, a Zplaubel, a Horseman, a Wista, or any other camera.
It is also impossible to tell if a picture was taken with an optical axis camera, a base tilt camera, a fixed point as symmetrical axis camera (Sinar) or a continuously variable asymmetrical axis camera (Linhof GTL) or any other type of movement camera.
Lastly, how did you determine that Sinar had sold 100,000 cameras? They only made, in the past few decades, the P and its variants. All the other models, F, F+, C, etc were made from parts of the P and sold as more basic versions. And speaking of their success, after the Koch family found that they had to sell the company to their largest retailer in Switzerland that company finally had to sell it about 3 years ago to Leica. Linhof, Wista, Toyo, etc. have not had to keep selling the company, although they have all downsided.

[Theodoros]

Where did you get your yaw information? Many cameras are yaw free when positioned normally, the Linhof Kardan prototype being the first yaw free camera.

No camera is yaw free unless the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of (EDIT: ..and stays there if combined with up-down shifts or side shifts)... This is not "information"... it is physics.

Any camera with the swing point positioned above the tilt point is always yaw free in its upright position.

...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...

Any camera that is normally yaw prone when in its upright position becomes yaw free when swung sideways
90°.

...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...

There is absolutely no way to tell in a finished shot if it was made in a yaw prone or a yaw free camera. In fact there is no way to tell if a shot was made with a Sinar, a Linhof, a Toyo, a Zplaubel, a Horseman, a Wista, or any other camera.
It is also impossible to tell if a picture was taken with an optical axis camera, a base tilt camera, a fixed point as symmetrical axis camera (Sinar) or a continuously variable asymmetrical axis camera (Linhof GTL) or any other type of movement camera.

No... there isn't... but the image will differ from camera to camera more or less depending on the error that is involved with each one of them... The image will also differ if you frame two of the above cameras for the same frame with the same lens on (no movements) and then apply the same value of movements on the two cameras... proportions (distortion) will differ too...

Lastly, how did you determine that Sinar had sold 100,000 cameras? They only made, in the past few decades, the P and its variants. All the other models, F, F+, C, etc were made from parts of the P and sold as more basic versions. And speaking of their success, after the Koch family found that they had to sell the company to their largest retailer in Switzerland that company finally had to sell it about 3 years ago to Leica. Linhof, Wista, Toyo, etc. have not had to keep selling the company, although they have all downsided.

Consequences of growing to be large and then the market to shrink... Sinar wasn't the only victim... Surely Leica saw some potential that others luck as to invest in it...

[Bob Salomon]

No camera is yaw free unless the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the circle of which the tilt arc is part of (EDIT: ..and stays there if combined with up-down shifts or side shifts)... This is not "information"... it is physics.

...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...


...and I'm an astronaut that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions...



No... there isn't... but the image will differ from camera to camera more or less depending on the error that is involved with each one of them... The image will also differ if you frame two of the above cameras for the same frame with the same lens on (no movements) and then apply the same value of movements on the two cameras... proportions (distortion) will differ too...



Consequences of growing to be large and then the market to shrink... Sinar wasn't the only victim... Surely Leica saw some potential that others luck as to invest in it...

Leica wanted to cover all digital formats up to 45 for years. But their earlier attempts to buy Sinar were rebuffed.

Say yellow to my friend Bob Cabana for me when you see him.

[Theodoros]

Leica wanted to cover all digital formats up to 45 for years. But their earlier attempts to buy Sinar were rebuffed.

Of course they did... but they choose to invest in Sinar instead of others looking (desperately) for investors... Wouldn't Linhof (of which the importers in US you are business related) be happy to find an investor (especially one like Leica) Bob?

Say yellow to my friend Bob Cabana for me when you see him.

Who is Bob Cabana? ...I guess you should call him and say whatever to him since its your friend (as you state)... I don't know the man.

[Bob Salomon]

Of course they did... but they choose to invest in Sinar instead of others looking (desperately) for investors... Wouldn't Linhof (of which the importers in US you are business related) be happy to find an investor (especially one like Leica) Bob?

Who is Bob Cabana? ...I guess you should call him and say whatever to him since its your friend (as you state)... I don't know the man.

I thought you said that you were an astronaught. If so, then you know Bob Cabana. Google him and learn. I taught him, and his fellow crew members, how to use the Rollei 6008 on the Space Shuttle. Also how to use the Linhof Aero Technika 45 EL on those missions as well.

[Theodoros]

I thought you said that you were an astronaught. If so, then you know Bob Cabana. Google him and learn. I taught him, and his fellow crew members, how to use the Rollei 6008 on the Space Shuttle. Also how to use the Linhof Aero Technika 45 EL on those missions as well.

I'm an astronaught (that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions), as much as cameras become yaw free if the swing point is positioned above the tilt point or if they are side turned by 90 degrees so that their tilt mechanism becomes swing and the swing acts as tilt...

There is no way for this invention (or other) to apply, unless if the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc and the axis that is formed by aligning the entrance pupil of the lens and the swing point, intersects the tilt arc at its "0" position...

Additionally, the only way for a camera to retain its yaw free operation and shifts are applied, is if when side shifting, one side shifts the swing point along with the entrance pupil of the lens and if he uses up-down shifts he ups or downs the tilt mechanism along with the entrance pupil of the lens (that's why shift mechanisms MUST be bellow the respective tilt and swing ones)... All other "theories" are just alchemist inventions that lead to into inducing distortions on the image....

[Bob Salomon]

I'm an astronaught (that has traveled all over galaxy in secret missions), as much as cameras become yaw free if the swing point is positioned above the tilt point or if they are side turned by 90 degrees so that their tilt mechanism becomes swing and the swing acts as tilt...

There is no way for this invention (or other) to apply, unless if the entrance pupil of the lens is positioned exactly at the center of the tilt arc and the axis that is formed by aligning the entrance pupil of the lens and the swing point, intersects the tilt arc at its "0" position...

Additionally, the only way for a camera to retain its yaw free operation and shifts are applied, is if when side shifting, one side shifts the swing point along with the entrance pupil of the lens and if he uses up-down shifts he ups or downs the tilt mechanism along with the entrance pupil of the lens (that's why shift mechanisms MUST be bellow the respective tilt and swing ones)... All other "theories" are just alchemist inventions that lead to into inducing distortions on the image....

In plain simple English, explain what you believe yaw means in a photographic application. Hint, it has nothing to due with the entrance or exit pupil of the lens, it has all to do with the mechanical movements of the camera.

[Theodoros]

In plain simple English, explain what you believe yaw means in a photographic application. Hint, it has nothing to due with the entrance or exit pupil of the lens, it has all to do with the mechanical movements of the camera.

Ιn plain English, your hints are that make me an astonaught that has travelled all over galaxy in secret missions... Open a book on optical theory just to verify that lenses don't rotate on their axis unless the rotation is performed with their entrance pupil being firmly locked in the same (unique) point... This is because a sphere has ONLY ONE center...

EDIT: In return let me give you a hint... lenses project cones on the light sensitive area surface... and cones are parts of a sphere of which the base is intercepted VERTICALLY and that base is always at 90 degs with respect to the radius of the sphere... In other words if your lens entrance pupil moves (at a different position from the center of the sphere), you won't get a circle projected, but an "egg shape" instead.... In other words, if the axis that passes through the entrance pupil of the (repositioned) lens and then through the center of your image area is not exactly perpendicular to the image area but angled, ...the shape of the projection will be distorted from circle to egg-shape...