Alkali vs Acid Fixers

[Doremus Scudder]

Wait you can use an acid stop bath with tf-4? I was under the impression a water stop bath is better for tf-4. Mind educating me on this?
Edit/ say if you do use an acid stop bath with tf-4 does that do anything to the wash cycle times or life of the fixer?

Take a look at the following thread about using an acid stop with an alkaline fix on APUG: http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?...op-bath.69029/

I'll take the liberty of quoting PE (Ron Mowrey) from his post #4 in the above thread:
"I have run TF-4 with a stop and a water rinse testing varying levels of running water and still water in the rinse. I have gotten various levels of fog in standing rinses even with a fresh charge of water in the tray, or with a low rate of running water. I have never gotten fog when I use a stop bath and I have never hurt the TF-4 or print by using a stop. This all refers to prints on FB or RC. The fast rate of development is the issue here combined with alkali and a silver halide solvent. That can fog paper emulsions. So, my workflow for prints using TF-4 always includes a stop."

The same should apply to film (even though fog is less of an issue with film than prints, it is still a degradation and affects shadow separation). Certainly, the fixer itself works just fine with a stop bath. FWIW, even with an acid stop, I have had film fog in an alkaline fixing bath from a combination of carried-over developer, which gets reactivated in the alkaline environment of the fix, and turning the white light on too early. I like TF-5 from printing, but use Ilford Rapid Fixer for film for just this reason.

I hope that PE's quote and the rest of the discussion in the linked-to thread clears things up (pun intended).

Best,

Doremus

[Andrew O'Neill]

I won't go into all the details they do, but the page seems worth a read. They sure make it seem like alkali fixer is just a simpler, better answer.

Of course they say this because they want to sell TF5. I've used both alkali and acid fixers. They both work. I prefer Ilford Rapid as it's cheap and readily available.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Of course they say this because they want to sell TF5. I've used both alkali and acid fixers. They both work. I prefer Ilford Rapid as it's cheap and readily available.

So true, Andrew!

I repeat to the OP the group's advice to use economical chemistry. It has a huge customer base BECAUSE IT WORKS so very well. D-76 and Rodinal have been my friends for fifty years.

Very best of luck.

[brad martin]

Paul,

Fixers are either Sodium or Ammonium based. With Sodium based you'll need a hypo clear. Or at least that's my understanding. You can get something like TF-4 from Photographers Formularly or Ilford Rapid Fixer from a lot of places. No hypo clear required. I've used TF-4 for a long time. Before that Ilfords rapid fixer. Now I've starting mixing my own TF-3. Do you need a stop bath? No. But get some anyway. If I use a stop bath it's at half strength. I've never noticed fog.

If you're just starting out keep it simple.

The most important aspect of darkroom work is a methodical workflow, good cleanliness practices, and adequate washing of film and paper.

[AuditorOne]

D-76 is a great developer, whether you use the Kodak stuff or the divided D-76 found at Photo Formulary. Rodinal is another terrific option and, if you don't shoot and develop a lot, will save practically forever. Another great developer is HC-110. It too is liquid and lasts for a very, very long time.

I now use TF-5 or I mix my own fixer using Sodium Thiosulfate (which has worked very well for at least a hundred years and seems to work just fine for me.) Contrary to popular belief it fixes TMX100 just fine, it just takes a couple of minutes longer.

Start with a basic setup like Rodinal, vinegar stop and Ilford Rapid Fixer and you will do great. Once you are ready to move on, though you wouldn't have to, you can start experimenting and trying things for yourself. A lot of what you will read, even here, amounts to preference by individuals, or advertisement by companies, rather than actual rules that cannot be broken.

Right now I use D-23, Beutler (both of which I mix myself) and Rodinal. to develop my film. I use a vinegar stop bath and TF-5 or hypo to fix. I also use Mirasol as a final rinse/surfactant to prevent water spots on my drying film. It all works.

If you would rather keep things a little more economical then go to Freestyle and pick up some of their Arista branded products. This is what I used when I first started and may end up going back to again.

I used water to "stop" development before dumping in the fixer but if you want to use your fixer more than once or twice you probably should consider white vinegar or a citric based stop bath.

[Pere Casals]

stop bath

Read this book as soon as possible: http://www.ssnpstudents.com/wp/wp-co...m-Cookbook.pdf


Page 103 explains all you need:


Stop bath stops all development in some 15s, plain water in some 30s. So at the end you have give some 15s less development time with plain water stop. That's all.

As you are not to use an acidic fixer you do not need to protect fixer with the stop bath, even I guess it is not a good idea to throw remains of an acid stop bath to an alkali fixer.

Acid stop bath made sense in the acidic fixers age, today rapid fixers are a common choice.


From the mentioned book:


"Even so, the disadvantages to using acid stop bath are:

When sodium carbonate, one of the most commonly used alkali in fi lm developers, comes into
contact with acid, carbon dioxide gas is released which can cause blistering in the emulsion of
both fi lm and paper. The problem is more critical in fi lm where it is appears as a pinhole, usually
in dense areas of silver deposits such as the sky.

If an acid bath is to be used there are two methods to prevent pinholes from occurring.
1. Use developers compounded with mild alkali, either sodium metaborate or borax, which do
not create carbon dioxide gas.
2. Use a 3% to 5% solution of sodium metabisulfi te, a 3% solution of chrome alum, or a mildly
acid stop bath, such as Kodak SB-1 Nonhardening Stop Bath. Or use a very gentle-acting stop
bath, suggested by Jay Dusard, comprised of a solution of 10.0 grams of sodium bisulfi te in 1.0
liter of water.


The fumes which emanate from acetic acid stop baths are perhaps the single greatest health hazard
in the darkroom. Over time, these fumes can cause damage to the delicate membrane of the
sinuses, resulting in respiratory problems. For this there are also two solutions.
1. Use an odorless citric acid stop bath such as Kodak SB-8.
2. Stop using stop baths altogether. Instead, substitute a one minute running water bath between
the developer and fi xer, for both fi lm and paper. If running water is not available fi ll the tray
or tank with fresh water, agitate for 20 to 30 seconds, dump, and repeat three times."


Anyway a lot of people uses acid stop bath with good results. I had been using it a lot. Now I don't use it since I got some pinholes, and by consulting the Anchel's book because the pins I found I was not necessary at all, you need 15 seconds more of stop bath but 15 second less of development.


As it looks you want to learn, just read the Anchel's Book, a great reference !!!

[Paul Kinzer]

I do own and have read The Darkroom Cookbook. Someone in a thread here said it had some errors that he knew of, so he worried it had others he did not. Still, it has been the basis of my rudimentary understanding of film processing.

In post #8 of this thread, jvo wrote, 'with all due respect, i'd suggest you do some processing rather than reading.. you have enough info from your reading, and the replies here... have some fun!' I see the point, and understand that it may get tiring answering the same questions again and again, but this thread shows my difficulty. Differing opinions and lots of suggestions are confusing (and this is just one thread). Still, it's obvious that I'll have to just make my own decisions in the end, since there are so many perfectly fine choices.

So, concentrated liquid seems like a no-brainer now, and that will take some possibilities off the table. And TF-4 or TF-5 for fixers works for me. Rodinal sounds fine as a developer, but someone elsewhere said it did not do well with lots of agitation. Is that only in some concentrations? I think I'm going to use a drum and constant agitation for processing. Would this be a problem with either Rodinal or the TF fixers?

And a citric acid stop bath sounds pleasant. But then someone mentioned pinholes.

I guess that I feel ready to make actual choices now, if my suggestions here don't raise any issues. Does anyone see any? I plan to use Ilford FP4, and the chemicals I just mentioned, in a constantly agitating drum. I guess the two potential issues I see, based on my reading, are pinholes and Rodinal not liking the drum developing.

I know I keep asking questions, but I do want to know before spending my funds, and before potentially ruining images. And I figure others might have the same questions, and will find the answers by reading this thread.

[Pere Casals]

I do own and have read The Darkroom Cookbook. Someone in a thread here said it had some errors that he knew of, so he worried it had others he did not.

Any book can have some errors. Also in processing there are some controversies, Anchel addressed that by mentioning those controversies.

For example, some say a pre-rinse (pre-soak) is very benefical, but Ilford datasheets say don't do it with tanks, if you dig, this is because it removes surfactants from emulsion that are good for development.

These are minor things, but if someone knows a clear conceptual mistake... What the hell that mistake is ?

IMHO you can trust completely that book, as one advances a lot in skills then one can have some discrepances, of course. The book combines trustful technical knowledge with some author's opinions when it is worth, anyway when something is an opinion it is well said in the book.

My recommendation is you use that book as your trustful reference, at least until you are very confortable with processing, then you can look for variants and other books.


A film photographer can make impressive prints without being much concerned with technical issues, as common recipes work very well, anyway spending some 50 hours by reading selected technical books gives a technical background that IMHO is completely worth.

Then it is also interesting reading books about the art share of photography, and about history...

My final word, IMHO you can trust Anchel's books, if someone speaks about errors then ask.... what errors ???

Next step can be "Beyond The Zone System" book, an advanced reference for calibrations, or a lot that are there.

Regrads

[LabRat]

There are typo errors in published formulas in different books (and online), so it is always a good thing to look up the same formula from at least two sources before using... You might find different mixing & use notes in different places, too...

Minor errors usually will usually not make too much of a difference, but things like gross dilution errors certainly will... But always cross-check formulas, and test on non-important film first, until you get the hang of them...

Steve K

[Pere Casals]

some errors

There are typo errors in published formulas in different books (and online), so it is always a good thing to look up the same formula from at least two sources before using... You might find different mixing & use notes in different places, too...

Minor errors usually will usually not make too much of a difference, but things like gross dilution errors certainly will... But always cross-check formulas, and test on non-important film first, until you get the hang of them...

Steve K

Hello Steve,

I agree, cross-checking is good, still erros can be copied from one source to another.



Second and third editions should be mostly error-free.

First edition of The Darkroom Cookbook has 2 major mistakes: FX-39 developer formula contain too much benzotrialzole, that would act as a toe cutter at 10x concentration, I guess. And FX-1 formula, completely wrong in one of the versions (the stock one in page 126, the other in page 59 is right).

But there are a lot for formulas there... and the really important thing for a learner is the conceptual matter.


Here you have the errata notice, with all the corrections:

http://anchellworkshops.com/books/errata/fdc_errata.pdf



When I re-learned film/paper processing (after a lot of years) I found no error in the Darkroom Cookbook that would cause any trouble in my learning process.

Just the counter, I'm very grateful to Mr Anchel because the plain and honest way the book was written. This is not only a commercial work, I feel he put best of him to help other in the path of learning darkroom skills, promoting a critical view from the learner.

This honestity is something we can see in other texts, of course, but this book excels in that, IMHO.

Regards