Which affordable 4x5 (or6x9?) camera should I buy?

[Phillip Reeve]

First thanks for all the input and the warm welcome :-)

You are in Germany so delivery from the UK is no problem. Landscape work would suggest a folding Field Camera rather than a a monorail View Camera. You want a robust and reliable camera that is easy to set up and use. Your budget is modest. An MPP Mk VII in good condition would be a fine introduction to 4x5. They are well made of metal and designed to take a lot of use.

Try and get one with the old plain 150mm Symmar because you will be able to close the camera with the lens fitted (very safe for your lens) and it is convertible, so, by removing an element, you get a 265mm lens as well.

They use standard 4x5 film holders. There is a plethora of spares still available and a very good MPP Users website http://www.mppusers.com/microtec.htm

RR

From what I could gather that sounds like a very reasonable choice.
What do you think about this offer: http://www.ebay.de/itm/181477831858?...84.m1423.l2649
It ended today with no bids but I could contact the seller and ask if he would sell it for a little bit less, suggestions for a fair price are welcome.
In the description it is mentioned, that there are some pinholes in the bellows, could I just put some gaffa on them or are they a real issue because it is likely that the bellows are brittle and will fail completely sooner or later?

I would like to get a 90mm lens for the camera and read some comments about limited movements with the Mk7 and WA lenses while others say there isn't too much of an issue. I have a 35mm T/S lens for my Sony FF camera which can be shifted +-12mm so it covers about twice the size of my sensor, so that is my only point of reference. How much can I shift lenses like the 150mm Symmar or an affordable 90mm lens for around 150€ on the Mk7?

thanks,
Phillip

[Steven Tribe]

There is a problem here as the lister of the camera you refer to has already contributed to this thread - so I'll respond and say he is very reliable, but I can't really comment on the "fair" price for the set!

[Brian C. Miller]

300€ would be great, 400€ would be okay, 500€ would hurt.

Image sharpness isn't that important to me...

#1, It's hard to go wrong with anything you purchase in LF. It takes a really bad lens to screw up the image on LF film. The lenses are simpler to design than the smaller formats, so the image is better. Any cheap late year lens will be incredible, and by cheap I mean something rebranded, like Caltar. The normal length lenses, 90mm - 210mm, from Nikon, Fuji, Schneider, and Rodenstock, will all give excellent results and don't cost too much.

#2, I started out with a Graphlex Super Graphic in the late 1990s, and I still use it. I was just out at the local waterfront Friday morning with it, with the stock Wollensak Optar 135mm, and a Caltar 210mm. Any press camera will give you wonderful results, just as they have been doing for decades. The MPP comes highly recommended, and you should have no problems buying something on the cheap.

#3, You simply need one camera and one lens, and then use them well. I used my Super Graphic for many years with just the 135mm lens. I simply worked to find what fit, and everything was fine.

#4, sharpness again. The Wollensak lenses tend to get short shrift, but with my 135mm I can get bicycle spokes at over a block away, and it takes a 16x20 enlargement to begin to see them on the print. The 1935 vintage 6-1/4" wide angle for an 8x10 will show you individual blades of grass in the lawn across the street. If a LF camera doesn't put out results like this, then it needs a bit of adjusting, and then the results are phenomenal.

#5, movements. For landscape work you don't need much movement. Any press-type camera should be fine. If you want to photograph buildings or some type of architecture, then you'll need movements. Monorail cameras are also really cheap, but, depending on the design, may not be very compact for transportation. The only MF camera I know that came with movements was the Fuji 680, but it's the same size and weight as a 4x5. It was designed as a studio camera, and I understand that they've been extensively used by portrait photographers.

You should be able to get completely set up for basic photography and developing your own film for your low end figure. Just keep looking around, and you'll find something that will suit you.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[Phillip Reeve]

There is a problem here as the lister of the camera you refer to has already contributed to this thread - so I'll respond and say he is very reliable, but I can't really comment on the "fair" price for the set!

hehe, small world!

I just did some research and found two auctions on ebay: this one ended at 205 pounds and there was a 90mm lens + a 135mm lens included.
This one ended at around 300 punds but there were 3 lenses included. So I think that 300 pounds for a camera with just one lens and a not lightproof bellows is a bit too expensive and I would not be able to sell the camera for about as much if I found that LF wasn't for me. Or is the 150mm lens that much more expensive than the other lenses?

#1, It's hard to go wrong with anything you purchase in LF. It takes a really bad lens to screw up the image on LF film. The lenses are simpler to design than the smaller formats, so the image is better. Any cheap late year lens will be incredible, and by cheap I mean something rebranded, like Caltar. The normal length lenses, 90mm - 210mm, from Nikon, Fuji, Schneider, and Rodenstock, will all give excellent results and don't cost too much.

#2, I started out with a Graphlex Super Graphic in the late 1990s, and I still use it. I was just out at the local waterfront Friday morning with it, with the stock Wollensak Optar 135mm, and a Caltar 210mm. Any press camera will give you wonderful results, just as they have been doing for decades. The MPP comes highly recommended, and you should have no problems buying something on the cheap.

#3, You simply need one camera and one lens, and then use them well. I used my Super Graphic for many years with just the 135mm lens. I simply worked to find what fit, and everything was fine.

#4, sharpness again. The Wollensak lenses tend to get short shrift, but with my 135mm I can get bicycle spokes at over a block away, and it takes a 16x20 enlargement to begin to see them on the print. The 1935 vintage 6-1/4" wide angle for an 8x10 will show you individual blades of grass in the lawn across the street. If a LF camera doesn't put out results like this, then it needs a bit of adjusting, and then the results are phenomenal.

#5, movements. For landscape work you don't need much movement. Any press-type camera should be fine. If you want to photograph buildings or some type of architecture, then you'll need movements. Monorail cameras are also really cheap, but, depending on the design, may not be very compact for transportation. The only MF camera I know that came with movements was the Fuji 680, but it's the same size and weight as a 4x5. It was designed as a studio camera, and I understand that they've been extensively used by portrait photographers.

You should be able to get completely set up for basic photography and developing your own film for your low end figure. Just keep looking around, and you'll find something that will suit you.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

When I moved from an APS-C camera to a FF camera I noticed how much better the results with the same lenses were because the image wasn't enlarged that much. That was a sensor size increas of 2.25 now with a 4x5 camera the factor would be somewhere around 15 so I can only imagine how much better the image quality must be. But that is not the reason why I want a LF camera, my 24mp FF camera is more than good enough for any print size I have printed so far.

[Andrew Plume]

There is a problem here as the lister of the camera you refer to has already contributed to this thread - so I'll respond and say he is very reliable, but I can't really comment on the "fair" price for the set!

as usual Steven, I'm very grateful

best

andrew

[Steven Tribe]

Thinking about your current image interests, I can't see any great need for extreme movements, so I would suggest a field reise tailboard kamera - made in Germany!

These are most common in the 13x18cm size. The advantage of going a step up from 9x12cm is that contact prints have real value in themselves - without the need for scanning or enlargers. There are 120 roll film backs around that can fit.

These are quite easy to get hold of. But you should be aware that the "dealer-type" listers in Germany put an inflated value on these (even those without a set of plate holders!) - you shouldn't have to spend more than 150 euros.

Bellows with small or large holes are really no problem. You will be using a dark cloth to focus on the ground glass. Just drap this cloth over the bellows before you insert the film holder. I have a sinar/copal shutter modification to an 18x24 reisekamera and there are some cracks between the tin adapter and the bellows plate - so the dark cloth comes in handy!

[Regular Rod]

First thanks for all the input and the warm welcome :-)


From what I could gather that sounds like a very reasonable choice.
What do you think about this offer: http://www.ebay.de/itm/181477831858?...84.m1423.l2649
It ended today with no bids but I could contact the seller and ask if he would sell it for a little bit less, suggestions for a fair price are welcome.
In the description it is mentioned, that there are some pinholes in the bellows, could I just put some gaffa on them or are they a real issue because it is likely that the bellows are brittle and will fail completely sooner or later?

I would like to get a 90mm lens for the camera and read some comments about limited movements with the Mk7 and WA lenses while others say there isn't too much of an issue. I have a 35mm T/S lens for my Sony FF camera which can be shifted +-12mm so it covers about twice the size of my sensor, so that is my only point of reference. How much can I shift lenses like the 150mm Symmar or an affordable 90mm lens for around 150€ on the Mk7?

thanks,
Phillip

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...Bellows-Repair

See if you can get the camera at a reduced price as you may have some work to do as above.

If the pin holes are small then Liquitex BASICS, Mars Black paint will certainly seal them up, as per the link above. Gaffer tape is not always light tight and when you remove it can pull bits off the bellows. External cracks in the outer layer of the bellows don't always mean that there are pinholes right through to the inside that let in light. How long the bellows will last depends on how they are now but they are usually very strong and there is a good chance the pin holes described do not go right through to the inside. Before you use the camera take the back off and remove the lens board. Open the bellows to its fullest extent, with the triple bed fully extended and with a new dry 1" paint brush, brush out all the dust and fluff you find in there and then vacuum out any remaining bits and pieces. While it is fully extended you can then spot paint the pinholes from the outside, with a fine artist's brush not the 1"! When it's all dry put the camera back together. Clean out your film holders, load them and get out there making photographs with it.

I think the advice to simply start with the "standard" lens is the way to go. The 150 Symmar has scope for lots of movement. Certainly it has been enough for photographing medieval churches without converging the verticals... 90mm Angulon is something you can add later. They often come up on eBay complete with MPP lens board!

RR

[Regular Rod]

#1, It's hard to go wrong with anything you purchase in LF. It takes a really bad lens to screw up the image on LF film. The lenses are simpler to design than the smaller formats, so the image is better. Any cheap late year lens will be incredible, and by cheap I mean something rebranded, like Caltar. The normal length lenses, 90mm - 210mm, from Nikon, Fuji, Schneider, and Rodenstock, will all give excellent results and don't cost too much.

#2, I started out with a Graphlex Super Graphic in the late 1990s, and I still use it. I was just out at the local waterfront Friday morning with it, with the stock Wollensak Optar 135mm, and a Caltar 210mm. Any press camera will give you wonderful results, just as they have been doing for decades. The MPP comes highly recommended, and you should have no problems buying something on the cheap.

#3, You simply need one camera and one lens, and then use them well. I used my Super Graphic for many years with just the 135mm lens. I simply worked to find what fit, and everything was fine.

#4, sharpness again. The Wollensak lenses tend to get short shrift, but with my 135mm I can get bicycle spokes at over a block away, and it takes a 16x20 enlargement to begin to see them on the print. The 1935 vintage 6-1/4" wide angle for an 8x10 will show you individual blades of grass in the lawn across the street. If a LF camera doesn't put out results like this, then it needs a bit of adjusting, and then the results are phenomenal.

#5, movements. For landscape work you don't need much movement. Any press-type camera should be fine. If you want to photograph buildings or some type of architecture, then you'll need movements. Monorail cameras are also really cheap, but, depending on the design, may not be very compact for transportation. The only MF camera I know that came with movements was the Fuji 680, but it's the same size and weight as a 4x5. It was designed as a studio camera, and I understand that they've been extensively used by portrait photographers.

You should be able to get completely set up for basic photography and developing your own film for your low end figure. Just keep looking around, and you'll find something that will suit you.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Excellent post!

RR