Colorbyte vs. Colorburst

[Paul Butzi]

Demo guys - Well, what can you say?

What am I using - I scan negatives on a Microtek ArtixScan 1800f. I adjust the image using Photoshop CS on a Windows XP machine. I generate prints on an Epson 9600, using the Epson driver and Bill Atkinson's profiles.

Part of the reason why RIPs like Colorbyte have a huge following is that, to a large degree, they solve the profile problem. Colorbyte have a huge number of profiles for various supported printers and various supported inksets and various supported papers available for their customers. It's perfectly possible that if you intend to print on a large number of papers, buying the Colorbyte RIP would be a cheaper way to go - if each custom profile costs you $100, and you'd need more than 9 profiles, you're ahead if you're printing on a 4000.

Remember, too, that they built their following back when ICC color management was shaky, and profiling services were non-existent. By providing profiling, they got a lot of customers who needed color contro.

But today, those issues are not as persuasive, or at least they're not $2500 persuasive to me.

Re: Mac - I'd think carefully before jumping. I've read more tales of woe from people who are struggling with driver issues on Macs as they upgrade OS's that I'd be gunshy of that approach.

If I were you, Kirk, I'd just use the Epson driver, buy custom profiles to get color neutral prints, and I'd tackle the monochrom toning problem with curves (the way I do, see http://www.butzi.net/articles/toning.htm )

It might be worth looking at a rip if you generate sets of prints for architectural clients, but I can't see it really working, I suspect you send them one print of 20 images and not 20 prints of one image, and a rip won't help too much with that.

Despite what the RIP people tell you, quality prints are a function of the person driving, and not the s0ftware. Sure, Clyde Butcher's prints look great - the man is an outstanding printer, both silver and presumably digital as well. That's because he knows what a great print looks like. He could probably produce good prints from a printer that used black crayon to output on toilet paper.

Remember, too, that Clyde has been doing digital output for a while now. Presumably he's learned a lot.

Re: color ink usage, monochrome tonality, metamerism, etc. I would definitely contrive to make comparison prints both with the epson driver and good profiles, and then with the RIP, and I would compare them side by side in several different kinds of decent lighting along with a silver print. Photography is rife with superstition, and I greatly suspect that digital output is no exception.

[Kirk Gittings]

Paul,

You are absolutely right. This is always the key:

"because he knows what a great print looks like"

I got alot out of the "Toning" article on your website. Thanks for that contribution. I think you are one of those guys that knows what a great print looks like.

So is George DeWolf. I emailed him again about my quandry and some of the points raised here and he said simply that "most everyone he knows that knows what they are doing uses ImagePrint".

I am going to play around with a demo that the rep sent me and make a decision.

By the way, his Digital Fine Print Workshop ( The 16-Bit Workflow) is the clearest and best layed out text that I have seen.

[Paul Butzi]

Kirk-

I'm glad you foudn the article helpful. Nowhere else have I seen anyone discuss what has become very evident to me - that 'monochrome' prints are not, in fact, monochromatic, at least not ones that look at all good.

I suspect that this is part of the reason why Colorbyte is popular with monochrome workers - among other things, it gives some control over tonality, much like what I get with curves but perhaps easier to get a handle on. When compared to a perfectly neutral monochrome print, a print with structured variation in tone will have a whole heck of a lot more life to it.

Also, bear in mind that in DeWolf's eyes, most everyone he knows that knows what they're doing probably has been doing it for a while - perhaps so long that using good custom profiles (or the excellent Atkinson free profiles for the 7600/9600) was not an option when they started. There's a strong tendency for people who have a working solution (e.g. ImagePrint) to continue even when another avenue is opened. That doesn't make ImagePrint bad, it just means that someone starting out might make a different decision from someone who started five years ago, or three years ago, or even last year.

I hope you'll let us know what you find when you try the demo version head to head.

[Howard Slavitt]

One of the main advantages of the Image Print RIP for black and white prints is that it eliminates metamerism. It does this by not using the yellow ink for black and white prints. You cannot achieve this result without a RIP, regardless of how you profile your printer. There are only two other ways to achieve black and white prints that do not change hue under different light sources: 1. Use a different RIP (such as Roy Harrington's RIP, Quadtone), or 2. Use a printer that only has black and white inks in it, such as the MIS quadtones.

[Paul Butzi]

Yes, I've heard that Image Print reduces metamerism by avoiding yellow. It's not clear to me how you'd produce a warm tone print without using yellow.

Maybe one of the Image Print folks could weigh in on this. It would seem to me that avoiding yellow would really reduce the reachable color space. Anyway, I am skeptical about the whole thing.

[tim atherton]

In part Paul I'd guess because the Epson black and grey inks by themselves are pretty darned warm to start off with.

I use IP on the 2200 - it's both a blessing and a curse.

(first, it does give very good , consistent colour prints with it's large range of profiles. And as has been noted - there is the metamerism problem with colour prints under different light sources with the Epson UC inks (and others). The IP profiles seem to reduce this to a minimum in the first place. On top of which you can chose a profile geared towards a particular light source - daylight/tungsten/flourescent or one for "mixed" )

For B&W prints, it does seem to do a very good job at giving a pretty neutral print that exhibits much less metamerism than any other inkjet method I've found apart from using grey/black quadtone inks. (and even some of those seem to suffer from it). The toning optioins (in 5.6) are somewhat limited - basically a "bit" warmer or a "bit cooler" - but it does seem to do that pretty well. I tend to favour prints with just a touch warmer look to them with IP. (as I did/do in the darkroom).

IP 6 is out for Mac and aparently offer a much wider range of options for toning, including split toning and such ( as well as printing with colour on greyscale prints - which is great for say promo pieces where you might be printing text + the image - before you had to run it through the printer twice). The PC version has been delayed and delayed and delayed... but is supposed to be out soon...

Both in colour and B&W it seems to give a much better tonal range than the Epson driver. Especially in colour, I notice much more shadow detail.

One problem with the 2200 version is that there is much more variation between individual pritners than with the more "pro" level 4000/76/9600 pritners which are supposedly built to higher tolerances.

Downside - cost. Even the "lite" version for the 2200 is darned expensive (and all it lets you do is print colour/bw - none of the "layout" features etc work). The versions for the bigger pritners are just exhorbitant + you have to pay a whacking big service contract fee if you expect to get any help. Also, the interface is still pretty clunky and it has a reputation for being buggy...

But for some uses, it is still relly the only show in town, so I guess they have you over a barrel

[Paul Butzi]

Understand that I'm not discounting the reports of reduced metamerism, I just don't see how the explanations work.

If the Epson black and grey inks were very warm, then the Epson driver would not need much yellow ink to produce a warm print, either.

Something herre just doesn't add up.

Paying fees for support for the RIP seems outrageous. I paid $5000 for my printer. For that price, the dealer (JVH in Bellevue, WA) transported the printer to my place (some distance, since I live in Carnation, some 30 miles away, uncrated the printer, assembled it, put it in place, hooked it up to my computer, installed the driver, taught me how to load the printer, align it, helped me make the first few prints, and left me with a pile of paper. When I ran into hardware problems, JVH helped me out, then escalated the problem with Epson to get it solved, ASAP, free.

So Colorbyte want $2500 for the software, they don't install it, and they don't support it unless I pay for support?

I can buy a lot of custom profiling for $2500. Maybe if I saw comparison prints I'd change my mind, but I'm having trouble seeing $2500 of value, let alone $2500 plus support. Do they really charge for support?

[tim atherton]

http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/buydirect.htm

http://www.colorbytesoftware.com/buyreseller.htm

and

MAINTENANCE PRICING

Annual Maintenance
Available for all IMAGEPRINT products may be purchased directly through ColorByte Software for $495 per printer license. This Agreement includes unlimited telephone support and product updates during the 12-month contract period. If you currently use IMAGEPRINT on more than one printer, please note that a Maintenance Agreement is required on all licensed printers.

Trident PE, SE and ColorRight Pro support is available for $400 per license. This price includes unlimited telephone support during the 12-month contract period, but does not include product upgrades.

Maintenance Lite
Available exclusively for IMAGEPRINT Lite products and only through ColorByte Software. For just $150, this agreement includes unlimited email-only support and product updates during the 90-day contract period. To participate in the quarterly maintenance program you must take delivery of software via the internet. Download instructions will be sent to you via email after payment is received. If you require a CD, we recommend our Annual Maintenance Program. If you currently use IMAGEPRINT on more than one printer, please note that a Maintenance Agreement is required on all licensed printers.

[Carl Schofield]

When you feed the Epson driver a monochrome image (warm, neutral, or whatever) it uses all of the inks, including yellow, in rather large amounts. In contrast, when I make a warm profile for QuadToneRIP I only need to use the black and light black inks to get a warm tone. For sepia I would only add very small amounts of light magenta and a tiny bit of yellow to the mix. For a neutral print only a little light magenta and light cyan are added to neutralize the warm tone of the light black ink. All of the prints made with these profiles are free of metamerism because of the light ink loads - not just because of the absence or small amount of yellow (in the case of the sepia profile) used. Another advantage of QuadToneRIP is the ability to make and linearize your own profiles - can't do either with ImagePrint. If you still have doubts download QTR and try it - won't cost you a penny unless you are satisfied and then you only pay $50.

[Frank Petronio]

Should owned Scitex Iris gear back in the day... $1500 month service contracts and $300 nozzles (that we now throw away).