Printing Pyrocat Hd negatives on VC paper

[Robert Oliver]

I've been processing negatives in Pyrocat HD for a while now and have had great results with scanning.

Last night I tried printing one of the Pyrocat negs on VC paper for the first time... And had some frustration. The negative is a scene with a bright area of ice crystals in the foreground and mostly middle to dark tones in the background. The negative was processed using minimal agitation, but might have been over developed. In hindsight I should have started with a simpler scene. Without filtration, my blacks to mid tones looked great, but the highlights were lifeless and flat. Having trouble getting detail in ice crystals to show up.

I'm using a Durst 138s with condenser head and a diffusion gel between bottom condenser and the negative stage. The bulb is one of the original durst globes, I thinks it's the weakest one. My negative was fp4+ rated at 80 and processed at 70 degrees for 17 minutes with agitation for the first minute and at 3 minute intervals.

I read an online discussion between Jay de Fehr and Sandy King about Pyrocat and VC printing. I would say the discussion gave me equal amounts of clarity and confusion. I tried Jay's suggestion of using a magenta filter to offset the built in yellow filter caused by the image stain. My print using this technique (3.5 multigrade filter) was fairly successful but a bit contrasty for my taste, will probably reprint with a 3.

I also experimented with a form of split grade printing, which came close but didn't result in a successful print.

Now I have to figure out what to do regarding processing the second negative of the scene... I think I should give the neg a little less processing time or switch to 1:1:150 dilution, assuming extra stain in the highlights is causing all of my problems. I'm figuring out that I may have over-developed my negs. Pretty sure i didn't over-expose. The way understand n+ processing just causes lack of contrast issues in highlights.

Printing time was 80 seconds at f8 with a 3.5 Multigrade filter. I either need a brighter bulb or I need to ditch the 1/2 stop diffusion gel.

Guess its time to invest in a sensitometer... Or think about switching back to a non-staining developer.

The attached contact sheet was made 1 Multigrade filter.

Confused by all of this? Me too!

[Henry Ambrose]

Add some sodium sulfite to the developer - and you get no stain.
There's a thread here about this, maybe the same one you refer to above:

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...x5-on-VC-Paper

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Robert, wish I could help. When I develop with Pyrocat HD and minimal I use 1:1:150 and develop by inspection using the same agitation. Looking at this scene I am convinced that carbon printing is the way to go for me. This would most likely be a one and done print for me with crisp snow detail and texture along with deep shadows and a bonus of relief. Nice image and good luck.

[jp]

I think it's very likely overdeveloped based on the time you quoted. I use 11-12 minutes with fp4+, and do 1 inversion at 1 minute intervals. You shouldn't need to derate the film to 80 either. I shoot it 100, but everyone's gotta figure out what works for them.

You might get a little bit of highlight detail when the paper dries down completely. Otherwise, it doesn't look terrible to burn the snow area a little more.

[Andrew O'Neill]

You probably should give less time in the developer. 17 minutes at 70F is quite long, for me, anyways. Try knocking time down about 25%. Pyrocat-HD negatives can print beautifully on VC papers.

[Richard Wasserman]

Just to confuse things a bit more, I rate FP4 at 80-100 depending on my mood (I think 80 or 100 are pretty much the same thing), and develop in Pyrocat for 18 minutes at 72º agitating every 3 minutes for an average scene. I think everyone needs to test and determine their own best practices. I like the way FP4/Pyrocat prints when the negatives are a bit contrasty and need the equivalent of a #1.5 filter or so with VC papers. Don't give up on it, it is a beautiful combination.

[Erik Larsen]

If I were printing this and having difficulty I would get the shadows/mid tones the way I want and then burn the snow using a higher filter to avoid a dull looking snow. You might have to dodge the snow a bit during your initial shadow/mid tone exposure so it doesn't go dull on you. From the look of things, it doesn't look like too difficult a task to dodge/burn this composition? For what it's worth, I rate fp4 at 80 and develop for 8 minutes in an expert drum on a roller base - but I use pyrocat M, not hd....
I think you'll be able to tame this negative although you'll probably have to donate a little paper to appease the trash can gods while you experiment

[Robert Oliver]

Thanks for the suggestions all,

I made a pretty hefty donation to the garbage gods last night making an 11x14 I was somewhat happy with...

My next try was going to be as Erik suggested, try burning in the snow with a #5 vc filter.

Looking at the negative again, I might have gotten all of the ice detail I am going to get out of it. Maybe N or N+1 development for the 2nd neg would give a bit more life to the ice. My cell phone snap of the scene has mass detail in the ice... Might even switch to my trusty old d76 or hc110 at N.

My normal process time for fp4+ is 9:30 with agitation once every 60 sec, but I added around 50% more for minimal agitation and 25% more for vc paper (as per sandy's recommendation on pyrocat-hd.com)

Here is the ice from last nights 11x14 print... Starting to think minimal agitation is where I went wrong, there is plenty of shadow detail, just no highlight detail in this neg.

[ic-racer]

Print it as if it had no stain. The stain does not change your ability to influence print contrast on VC paper using standard techniques.

[David Schaller]

Thanks for the suggestions all,

I made a pretty hefty donation to the garbage gods last night making an 11x14 I was somewhat happy with...

My next try was going to be as Erik suggested, try burning in the snow with a #5 vc filter.
Looking at the negative again, I might have gotten all of the ice detail I am going to get out of it. Maybe N or N+1 development for the 2nd neg would give a bit more life to the ice. My cell phone snap of the scene has mass detail in the ice... Might even switch to my trusty old d76 or hc110 at N.

My normal process time for fp4+ is 9:30 with agitation once every 60 sec, but I added around 50% more for minimal agitation and 25% more for vc paper (as per sandy's recommendation on pyrocat-hd.com)

Here is the ice from last nights 11x14 print... Starting to think minimal agitation is where I went wrong, there is plenty of shadow detail, just no highlight detail in this neg.

That seems too long to me. I shoot FP4 at 100 with Pyrocat. My N development with Pyrocat HD at 70 degrees is just 11 minutes, and mostly I would do N-1 or less with that scene. With silver printing I am always going to give less development to the negative, then punch up the contrast in the print, if necessary. I do minimal agitation, once per minute.