Rumors of Ilford dropping sheet film

[Philippe Gauthier]

This is probably just a wild rumor, but an user of the Ilford forum, citing a French Ilford official, claims that it is "very likely" that all sheet film be dropped. Only 135 and 120 format film would still be produced. The link is the following:

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/ILFOPRO/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6140

The exact quote (in French): "Ces films, FP4+ et HP5+, et la gamme Delta (100, 400 et 3200) seront toujours fabriqués, en 135 et 120. Par contre, les plans-films disparaîtront très probablement du catalogue." Nothing is said about Pan F or SFX.

I post this in the hope that someone will have a better (and negative) information on that issue.

[Bob._3483]

I just posted this over there, it gives my view; but frankly, it's all speculation until the administrators tell us the real story...

I have just read a Google translation of the guy's message and frankly, it sounds like baloney... 1st: all Ilford people are under strict confidentiality regarding the current proceedings - if this guy is talking from definitive information supplied to him from Ilford UK, then he has just effectively resigned - the administrators will be incandescent! 2nd: He is in any case unlikely to be sufficiently in the loop - Ilford France are simply distributors: no doubt Ilford will keep them advised as things change, but whatever they are told will be under strict conditions of secrecy. 3rd: and most telling, it is simply too soon to know what will, and will not, still be on the shelves (if anything) when the dust has settled - to be as specific as he has been at this time is nonsense.

Note the French poster is a marketing director - I smell a marketing stunt to drum up sales and reassure punters of roll film, by far the majority, of continued supply. Basically, I think we can ignore this as being noise with no actual information content. We will know the real situation soon enough.

Cheers,

[Nick_3536]

"reassure punters of roll film, by far the majority"

Maybe but without sheet film I've got zero interest in using thier roll film. While the people who use roll film only may out number us I bet on average we use more film in various formats.

[ISO 2]

Bob,

I wouldn't bother with Google translations, especially if they're as bad as Babelfish.

"Ces films, FP4+ et HP5+, et la gamme Delta (100, 400 et 3200) seront toujours fabriqués, en 135 et 120. Par contre, les plans-films disparaîtront très probablement du catalogue."

<<FP4+, HP5+ and the Delta range (100, 400 and 3200) will still be produced in 35mm and 120 roll format. Conversely, sheet film will probably disappear from the catalogue.>>

This is obvious in the text, however the standard of the French is rather unlikely to come from the mouth of a French native, fluent in a marketing lead, even as a <pro-roll-film format hike>. I don't want to speculate too much on this however the rest of the announcement would be helpful to place this in context. The statement above connotes too much above and beyond what it denotes. Most people would infer that the sheet film to be discontinued, are the same as those cited in the first sentence. But given the lack of the use of the subjunctive tense, whoever uttered those words seems to be uttering a conviction, not an opinion, so the more appropriate test isn't to question what is said, but the role of the person to whom those words were attributed.

The other question it raises in mind, is why Ilford France had such close links with Ilford UK, such that formal announcements could be made; am I wrong to think that Ilford was tied closer to the Swiss Ilford than France?

Of course, my own difficulty in deciphering what statement the above implies, is that I don't want it to be true. Like plenty of us here. Yet I know that this is more than likely, having suspected since 1998 that this is the direction Ilford would go. I guess I don't particularly need nor want a lecture on cognitive dissonance, but I do rely on Pan F Plus right up to Delta 3200. It might sound as pathetic as fretting over a blown capacitor or a discontinued betamax, but it's going to be harder to wake up tomorrow.



PS Nick. I'm not sure I follow your statement about roll-film users. Some of 'us' use roll-film as well as sheet film interchangeably on the back of a 5x4 as well as on medium format.

[Philippe Gauthier]

As a native French speaker, I concur with ISO 2 that the phrase "will very probably disappear" at the indicative, not subjunctive or conditional, is a very strong statement in French. It expresses a very strong conviction, not mere speculations. Note that for once, the automated translation is quite faithful to the original.

The issue is to know if this guy really has leaked some confirmed information, if this information indeed exists at that time and would be made available to some middle management guy. Perhaps he got some false information; perhaps he doesn't like sheet film and turned his own assumptions into near certitude. Who knows.

[ISO 2]

Thanks Phillippe,

I purposefully avoid translating "probably" as "very probably" because semantically, this is splitting hairs. Once something is probable, making it "very probable"; "most probable", or "highly probable" is all probably the same.

Grief. Now I'm doing it.

Regards.

[Nick_3536]

"PS Nick. I'm not sure I follow your statement about roll-film users. Some of 'us' use roll-film as well as sheet film interchangeably on the back of a 5x4 as well as on medium format."

That's what I mean. If they stop making sheet film the chance that I'll buy thier roll film is much less. If I'm buying some body elses sheet film I'm likely going to buy my 35mm/120 from somebody else.

[ISO 2]

Understood Nick - thanks for clarifying.

I think this is why I'm doing the crab-walk towards Fuji.....

[Andre Noble]

This from the web:

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them. Beyond this benign if uncomfortable aspect, however, dissonance can go "over the top", leading to two interesting side-effects for learning:

(Resistance) If someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning. Even Carl Rogers recognised this. Accommodation is more difficult than Assimilation, in Piaget's terms.

(Denial in the Face of Evidence) If learning something has been difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating enough, people are not likely to admit that the content of what has been learned is not valuable. To do so would be to admit that one has been "had", or "conned"............

[Bob._3483]

"The other question it raises in mind, is why Ilford France had such close links with Ilford UK, such that formal announcements could be made; am I wrong to think that Ilford was tied closer to the Swiss Ilford than France? "

Precisely. It is absurd to think Ilford would be making official statements via a French company that is little more than a distributor - only the UK and Swiss offices are actually where Ilford lives; the rest are, at best, semi-detached.... So, the guy is either in big trouble for leaking confidential information, or he is doing his job by making soothing noises for the majority of Ilford customers in order to keep them on-side, or this is just his opinion, as likely to be based on rumour as anything else you will read on the subject.

Not at all sure about the subtleties of levels of certitude in the French language, but I have lost count of the number of things I have been absolutely, 110%, positively, utterley, entirely, and completely certain about - only to be proven totally and incontrovertably wrong 2 minutes later... ;-) Here's hoping he is suffering from the same condition.

I would also agree, if I can't get sheet film, I will probably not bother with the 120 even if it is available - may as well stick with one emulsion for all as I do now: FP4+ & HP5+ mainly - if they go in sheet, they may as well go in roll.

We will just have to wait and see - and keep buying Ilford products... All is speculation at this point.

Cheers,