Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images

[StoneNYC]

Sounds like a placebo effect...post up your results StoneNYC

I did somewhere, maybe on APUG? I'm not on there anymore so I'll have to dig it up. It's not on X-Ray, I'll let you guys know when I post it.

[Randy]

Frustrated - just processed 4 sheets of 8X10 X-ray film (2 batches) in my upright low volume (2 LTR) tanks - First batch a few weeks ago I got very bad mottling and surge marks (density was fine) - so, as advised by others, I should try increasing developer dilution and development time - also adjust my agitation method.

Here is what I did:

2 minute pre-soak - initial gentile agitation for about 10 sec.

Developer - Arista Premium Liquid, increased dilution from 1:18 to 1:27, increased development time from 10 minutes to 20 minutes @ 68 degrees f.
Agitation method - (all of this is done very slowly, each movement of the film hangers is only 1/2" and takes about 3 seconds) lift one side of hangers then lower, slide hangers to other side of the tank, then lift the other side and lower, then slide back and repeat, then slide back and repeat - so the entire agitation process (once every 2.5 minutes) takes about 20 seconds. So, for the 20 minutes in the developer, I agitated about 8 times as described above. At no time during the development stage did the film rise out of the developer - all agitation was so slight as to keep the entire surface of the film in the chemistry.

Wash - plain water, same procedure as pre-soak.

Fix - 4 minutes, same agitation as development.

My film is still drying - but what I got was: the surge marks and mottling (uneven development/streaking) that I got in my first attempt weeks ago, is still visible but not quite as prevalent except in the upper portion of the negative, the part near the hinged gate on the hanger, and there is definitely an area of increased density, about 3/4" to 1" around the entire border of the negative.
As gently as I agitated, I am baffled as to how one can succeed with low volume upright tank processing unless it is done with no agitation (stand). Am I going to just have to just go back to try processing...?

I will post a scan of the new batch as soon as it dries, but I don't think it will be looking much better that what I posted a few pages back. I have read on other threads concerning processing in film hangers (not X-ray film) and they describe much more vigorous agitation yet not getting this mess that I am getting with 8X10 X-ray film in hangers...

I have processed thousands of sheets of 4X5 Tri-X in 4-sheet hangers in 3.5 gal tanks of HC-110 "B" or D-76 when I worked in a USAF photo lab, and I know my agitation method was more vigorous than what I described above, yet no uneven development or surge marks - do I need to try a different developer...?

Frustrated

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have only been successful with hangers if I agitated gently and slowly. Slowly up, slowly down. I don't pull the hangers right out of the developer, either. This seems to work for me. I don't bother with a pre soak.

[StoneNYC]

Frustrated - just processed 4 sheets of 8X10 X-ray film (2 batches) in my upright low volume (2 LTR) tanks - First batch a few weeks ago I got very bad mottling and surge marks (density was fine) - so, as advised by others, I should try increasing developer dilution and development time - also adjust my agitation method.

Here is what I did:

2 minute pre-soak - initial gentile agitation for about 10 sec.

Developer - Arista Premium Liquid, increased dilution from 1:18 to 1:27, increased development time from 10 minutes to 20 minutes @ 68 degrees f.
Agitation method - (all of this is done very slowly, each movement of the film hangers is only 1/2" and takes about 3 seconds) lift one side of hangers then lower, slide hangers to other side of the tank, then lift the other side and lower, then slide back and repeat, then slide back and repeat - so the entire agitation process (once every 2.5 minutes) takes about 20 seconds. So, for the 20 minutes in the developer, I agitated about 8 times as described above. At no time during the development stage did the film rise out of the developer - all agitation was so slight as to keep the entire surface of the film in the chemistry.

Wash - plain water, same procedure as pre-soak.

Fix - 4 minutes, same agitation as development.

My film is still drying - but what I got was: the surge marks and mottling (uneven development/streaking) that I got in my first attempt weeks ago, is still visible but not quite as prevalent except in the upper portion of the negative, the part near the hinged gate on the hanger, and there is definitely an area of increased density, about 3/4" to 1" around the entire border of the negative.
As gently as I agitated, I am baffled as to how one can succeed with low volume upright tank processing unless it is done with no agitation (stand). Am I going to just have to just go back to try processing...?

I will post a scan of the new batch as soon as it dries, but I don't think it will be looking much better that what I posted a few pages back. I have read on other threads concerning processing in film hangers (not X-ray film) and they describe much more vigorous agitation yet not getting this mess that I am getting with 8X10 X-ray film in hangers...

I have processed thousands of sheets of 4X5 Tri-X in 4-sheet hangers in 3.5 gal tanks of HC-110 "B" or D-76 when I worked in a USAF photo lab, and I know my agitation method was more vigorous than what I described above, yet no uneven development or surge marks - do I need to try a different developer...?

Frustrated

I don't understand how 2L is "low volume" that's a lot of developer.

I don't use hangers so maybe that's the best they can get? I've only used jobo tanks, and those, you can do 2 sheets with just 300ml of developer.

I cannot help with your problem. But if you ever get fed up, I would suggest the jobo tanks.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Flat-bottomed trays. My preferred method.

[Randy]

Below is an image to go with my post on the previous page - I just have no idea how to fix this, other than just forgetting using the tanks (Stone, I guess they are "low volume" because they are lower volume than the slim stainless tanks that hold about 3.75 Ltrs) and go back to trays - the only reason I wanted to try tanks was to keep my fingers out of the chems. I have never had a reaction in my 40+ years of putting my fingers in, but just thought it might be a good idea to try to avoid.

This is from the batch I just processed -


This is from the batch a few weeks ago - stronger dev and shorter time, a tad more vigorous agitation -


As you can see, no improvement - if anything, you could say my latest attempt is worse, even though my agitation was much less vigorous, my dev. was more dilute and my time longer.

[jp]

Below is an image to go with my post on the previous page - I just have no idea how to fix this, other than just forgetting using the tanks (Stone, I guess they are "low volume" because they are lower volume than the slim stainless tanks that hold about 3.75 Ltrs) and go back to trays - the only reason I wanted to try tanks was to keep my fingers out of the chems. I have never had a reaction in my 40+ years of putting my fingers in, but just thought it might be a good idea to try to avoid.

This is from the batch I just processed -

This will happen to any film you develop in a tray if the tray is right-sized for the film. Chemistry bounces off the wall of the tray and flows back onto the photo, creating more development in the edges than the center. Size up a tray and it will be more consistent.

[Andrew O'Neill]

jp, he developed in a tank with hangers. I develop in a flat-bottomed tray that is only slightly larger than 8x10, about 9x11. Gentle agitation.

[jon.oman]

I use one gallon deep tanks. A five minute water pre-soak, with intermittent agitation. D76 full strength with 15 seconds agitation each minute, for a total of six minutes at 68 degrees F. Thirty seconds in a vinegar stop bath with agitation, and 10 minutes in a hardening fixer with intermittent agitation. Finally, I wash the negative in running water for 20 minutes.

Agitation: I use the Kodak method, which I have used for forty years. Pick up all hangers, straight up, and out of the tank. Angle all hangers at about 45 degrees right, and tap on the top of the tank edge. Immerse the hangers completely into the tank. Pick up all hangers, straight up, and out of the tank. Angle all hangers at about 45 degrees left, and tap on the top of the tank edge. Repeat.

Here is a sample image, using this method:



This works for me!

[koraks]

Blue sensitive x-ray, cut down to 4x5.

I shot this as a test to see how this film would work - it just does. It develops fine in Rodinal (1:100, 4 minutes, constant agitation, no pre-soak); I exposed it as ISO 100-ish. Scans nicely as well. Grain is not too obtrusive, certainly not as this is large format and I intend to use it for 8x10 later on.

The marks on the right side of the cups on the table aren't damage to the negative (yes, this stuff is sensitive, but I was careful with this sheet) but just dirt on the table. I live in filth.

Btw, this film is the blue-sensitive Raytronix stuff you can get from eBay (which I did here). It costs about the same as the Fuji stuff and most of the other x-ray film and as far as I can tell so far, it behaves the same way as well.