yet another question about the 65mm choice for Horseman 6x9 entendable to 4x5

[landstrykere]

so i bought couple days ago a Horseman 985 with a Topcor Super 90mm f5.6 (it is on the way from Japan to Norway...)
it was sold with the 4x5 extender spring back.
I plan to shot mostly 6x9, but will also 4x5 without movements, just for the bigger size.
One of the motivations for buying the camera is to shoot wider than what can be done with my Bronica 6x6, and for this the 65mm lenses seem good.

I read a lot of threads here and there, and got the comptabilitty list of lenses from the latest snapshot of Komamura site, on http://archive.org: (18 june 2012, after what the page is 404):
https://web.archive.org/web/20120618...lens_list.html

the Komamura requirements are:
circle for 4x5 without movements 150mm
flange: 60mm to 250mm
rear element diameter: max 65mm
shutter #0 or #1

possible lenses besides Topcor are:

• Nikkor SW 65mm f4 circle 170mm, rear 54mm
• Fujinon SWD 65m f5.6 circle 169mm rear 65mm
• Rodenstock Grandagon N 65mm f4.5 circle 170mm rear 51
• Schneider Super Angulon MC 65mm f5.6 circle 170mm rear 57mm

the native Topcor Super is f7, circle 152mm

I would go for the faster lenses: Nikkor f4 or Grandagon f4.5, because it would make the focusing much easier than at f7. Both have also small rear element 54mm and 51mm, while the Fujinon will barely fit with its 65mm.

BUT, as I see it , because the added thickness of the 4x5 extender, these lenses are of limited used, the flange being altered a lot and in fact a 65mm will be fully usable only on 6x9 film. Right?


as for movement, the lens will be so much stuck inside the camera body that no movement or too little would be possible. Right?
if so, no need to have a bigger circle than the 152mm of the Topcor, excepted that this circle is with the lens at f22, so it could be good anyway to buy a much faster lens just for the comfort of use and in case a very slight couple mm movement is possible to still keep full coverage.

i'll have in case of non Topcor, to set stops on the focusing rails, at the infinity distance of the given lens, but the 65mm cam will work anyway obviously. Right?

do i miss something?
what other advices?

[rfesk]

You are correct in my opinion on all of your questions. There are resources in the internet as to what will fit on the 985. Max. opening at the rear is 66mm.

[ic-racer]

Horseman modified the mount of the 65mm lens for the VH-R an ER-1 cameras by increasing the flange-focal length (ie mounting it in a recessed panel.) This allows full movement on 6x9 format. You can recognize those lenses by the 'wrinkle' finish on the lens board (as opposed to the hammer metal finish).

The 65mm on recessed board (as above) will work on the Horseman FA, but it is just hanging off the focus rail. A little precarious but it does work and I have used it that way.

[Dan Fromm]

OP, your first link is to archive.com, not to a Komura catalog. I think you meant Komamura and type Komura. Please correct both errors.

You should read this: http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/C..._Horseman1.htm

This https://www.cameraeccentric.com/stat...horseman_2.pdf catalog gives the 65/7 Super Horseman ER's flange-focal distance as 70.6 mm. I believe that you're right and that it can't be used with Horseman's 4x5 extender. I also believe, could be mistaken about this, that lenses much longer than 150 mm also can't be used with the extender because the 6x9 gate will vignette the image projected on 4x5 film.

For a more-or-less complete list of lenses with focal length <= 65 mm that might do for you, see: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AggQfcczvHGNgYhY...yw8Og?e=uIWOnL

There's no guarantee that the 65 mm cam will work with other lenses. Because of marketing fluff and less than perfectly accurate manufacturing processes, there's no guarantee that a lens' focal length matches the focal length engraved on it. You'll have to test other lenses to find out whether they'll work with your 65 mm cam.

[landstrykere]

OP, your first link is to archive.com, not to a Komura catalog. I think you meant Komamura and type Komura. Please correct both errors.

?

my first link is from an archived version of KOMAMURA website, with the list of compatible lenses. The current Komamura website has no longer this info on its site it seems, from my search. That's why I went on archive.org to see if they had a copy with that list. Which is the case. Often manufacturers clean up their site and remove pages about older gear. The archive.org pages are frozen copies of former versions of the sites.
The link is the following, here in screenshot: it writes clearly "http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/lens_list.html"



and I wrote KOMAMURA.

You should read this: http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/C..._Horseman1.htm
This https://www.cameraeccentric.com/stat...horseman_2.pdf catalog gives the 65/7 Super Horseman ER's flange-focal distance as 70.6 mm. I believe that you're right and that it can't be used with Horseman's 4x5 extender. I also believe, could be mistaken about this, that lenses much longer than 150 mm also can't be used with the extender because the 6x9 gate will vignette the image projected on 4x5 film.

For a more-or-less complete list of lenses with focal length <= 65 mm that might do for you, see: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AggQfcczvHGNgYhY...yw8Og?e=uIWOnL

There's no guarantee that the 65 mm cam will work with other lenses. Because of marketing fluff and less than perfectly accurate manufacturing processes, there's no guarantee that a lens' focal length matches the focal length engraved on it. You'll have to test other lenses to find out whether they'll work with your 65 mm cam.

thanks, that's useful about what lenses can be used with the extender. The camera I bought comes with the 90mm, it may be that the former owner (who isn't the seller) did use the 90mm with the 4x5 extender... I'll see if I'll get infinity... otherwise i may have to use the 105mm, 120mm or 150mm. But it would be ok to give a taste of 4x5 once in a while.

as for variations in actual focal length across manufacturers, well that's more annoying, would have to make my own cam....

[landstrykere]

Horseman modified the mount of the 65mm lens for the VH-R an ER-1 cameras by increasing the flange-focal length (ie mounting it in a recessed panel.) This allows full movement on 6x9 format. You can recognize those lenses by the 'wrinkle' finish on the lens board (as opposed to the hammer metal finish).

The 65mm on recessed board (as above) will work on the Horseman FA, but it is just hanging off the focus rail. A little precarious but it does work and I have used it that way.

thank you, very useful.

so from random ebay search, the older hammered:


and its back


and the newer one:


and its back, indeed recessed:


(the one of ER-1 not so, because shutter attachement with solenoid.)

---

you have been all very helpful, I get a clearer idea. I guess I'll buy a black wrinkled one.

[landstrykere]

something else I may have to consider in case of the newer wrinkly Topcor 65mm is the use of a spacer, in order to compensate for the recessed mount?

also maybe need a center filter?

[Dan Fromm]

CF? Hmm. Without movements, with a 65 on 2x3 (image circle 100 mm in diameter) the corners will be 1.3 stops down from the center. Whether you'll need a CF depends on your preferences and your film's exposure latitude. If I were you, I'd try the lens out and then decide whether to get a CF for it. I believe the lens takes a 40.5 mm filter. As far as I know there are no 40.5 mm CFs, you'll probably have to get a thin (great stress thin) step ring and a larger CF. Schneider CF I or 49 mm CF II are the likely ones. Beware, there are two versions of the CF II, with 49 and 52 mm rear threads respectively. See http://www.galerie-photo.com/center-...at-lenses.html

[landstrykere]

again very useful information about the filter. Indeed in 6x6 and 6x9 with MF we don't need center filters.
The paradox with these Horseman is that they are MF cameras in LF technology.
Anyway I am still waiting for the camera to arrive, it is now somewhere between Tokyo and Oslo...

[Dan Fromm]

again very useful information about the filter. Indeed in 6x6 and 6x9 with MF we don't need center filters.
The paradox with these Horseman is that they are MF cameras in LF technology.

This is because MF SLRs' wide angle lenses are retrofocus type (to clear the mirror) which don't suffer cos^4 falloff and whose mechanical designs eliminate mechanical vignetting. In addition, MF SLRs and rangefinder cameras don't have decentering movements, so don't need lenses with as much coverage as view cameras do. And few of them have lenses that are shorter than half the image circle's diameter.

Do the arithmetic to gain a fuller understanding. In practice, on 2x3 around 60 mm is the shortest focal length that can be used without a CF when shooting reversal film. I have two 58s a 60 and several 65s, feel the need for CFs when shooting 6x12 but not when shooting 2x3. I've shot a 47/5.6 Super Angulon on 2x3 with and without a CF, for most subjects it wants a CF. 35/4.5 Apo-Grandagon absolutely needs a CF.