Heico Perma-Wash vs. Ilford Wash-Aid Logistics?

[John Layton]

Preface: When I print these days I’m typically in the darkroom for three to six hours on a given day, and might fully process, wash, and dry from two to five 16X20 prints during this time period. Furthermore, as I’m printing a bit less these days…I might be in the darkroom only one day per week, and sometimes less.

Given both the above scenario and/or my somewhat earlier one of pulling two or three six to eight (sometimes twelve) hour darkroom sessions per week, over the course of which I might process, wash, and dry fifteen to twenty five(ish) 16X20’s, I’d found, that as a fixer remover, Heico Perma Wash has fit my needs perfectly, with a working-solution capacity of ten 16X20’s per gallon, and shelf life of 90 days for that same gallon, if full and capped. Furthermore, as the Perma Wash concentrate is diluted 3oz per gallon to make a working solution, I’ve found it very workable over the years to purchase Perma Wash concentrate in the one-liter size.

When I’d recently needed to re-order my trusty liter of Heico Perma-Wash, I’d noticed that there is now a minimum order of 6 (through B+H), which I then looked upon as an opportunity to give Ilford Wash-Aid a try.

So I get my one-liter bottle of Ilford Wash-Aid, and notice that its specifics for dilution, capacity, and shelf-life are completely different than those for Perma-Wash. For example, the dilution from concentrate to working solution is one plus 4 (five parts total), meaning that the one liter bottle gives me five liters of working mix. The problem arises in the capacity and shelf life of this working solution, with the capacity being 40 16X20 prints per gallon (appx.), and a shelf life of one week!

And there is no way that anything less than about one gallon of working solution can be safe and effective for my typical output of 16x20 prints.

Finally, the cost of creating a one gallon working mix of Ilford Wash-Aid is approximately 21.60, which equates to around 50 cents per 16X20 print (assuming I’d work it to capacity prior to exhaustion), while the cost of creating a gallon of Perma Wash working mix is appx. 2.00, which equates to 20 cents per print, and while its per (working) gallon capacity is much less than that with Wash-Aid, I can always mix more if I need to, and if I don’t come close to reaching this capacity during a given print session, I have up to 89 additional days before it goes kaput! In other words, I basically always use Perma Wash to its full capacity. (not an exact science, but you get my drift)

About the only scenario in which I could see Ilford Wash-Aid being at all cost effective/efficient for my needs would be if I were to go “full bore” for that one week, pre-exhaustion time period, and over this time process, wash, and dry 40 16X20 prints! Back in the day? Maybe. But these days? Nope!

At any rate…I’ve been ranting and blathering long enough, and have just noticed that Adorama sells individual liter bottles of Perma-Wash, although it looks backordered for the time being. I’d go with the gallon bottle of Perma Wash concentrate…but can find nothing published about the shelf life of Perma Wash concentrate, either in full or partially full bottles. Anybody here know this? Thanks! Any comments relating to personal experiences with either of these products would be most welcome! Also...am I missing something here?

(As for other wash aids, the only one I’d used in any quantity was the Sprint “Fixer Remover” formulation…but found problems with this going bad prematurely).

[paulbarden]

John, have you considered buying 5 or 10 pounds of Sodium sulfite and making your own?

[Oren Grad]

What method are you using to determine the useful life (both number of prints and shelf life) of your wash aid?

[Erik Larsen]

I’m with Paul here. Just add 4 tablespoons of sodium sulfite to a gallon just prior to use and discard when finished. Very cheap this way. Although I do like the idea of supporting our suppliers of chemistry to keep them motivated but hypo clear cost more to package than its contents are worth.

[Mark Sampson]

FWIW, Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent contains a little sodium bisulfite as well.

[Bernice Loui]

Heico's Perea-Wash is rumored to contain Sulfur Soap in some concentration..

Could anyone verify this as rumor or true to some degree?


Bernice

[John Layton]

Oren - I will typically use pretty much any solution to just a bit more than one half its stated capacity, area-wise...and usually much less than this, time-wise. I also do "spot checks" on occasion for residual silver and so far, so good.

Paul and Eric - I've been thinking about DIY-ing this, and actually think I've got some sodium sulfite around someplace.

[Doremus Scudder]

John,

Personally, I've always been skeptical of Heico Perma Wash and its capacity claims. "If it seems too good to be true..."

Kodak had the world's top photographic chemistry R&D labs for decades. The best they (and Ilford) could come up with for a wash aid was a sodium sulfite solution with a bit of pH adjustment (usually in the form of bisulfite/metabisulfite) and chelating agents, etc.

As far as logistics go, I have a couple comments. First I do fine with two liters of solution for 16x20 prints using Paterson 16x20 trays, which are oversized and pretty deep (that's for every solution in the process; developer, stop, fix one and two, and the wash aid). I'll wager you can get by with two liters of wash aid instead of a whole gallon, which is definitely overkill for five 16x20 prints.

Second, I second the suggestion to simply mix your own wash aid one-session using raw chemicals. If your tap water doesn't contain a lot of dissolved minerals, then a Tablespoon of sodium sulfite and a generous pinch of sodium bisulfite per liter is all you need. If you can get by using just two liters of solution then your expenditure is just two Tbsp. sulfite and a bit of bisulfite per session.

With a water rinse before the wash aid (recommended!), then the capacity for this mix is, like the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, 200 8x10s per gallon, or roughly 50 8x10s per liter (half that without the rinse before treatment in wash aid). That means you could get 25 16x20s from two liters of solution if you wanted. Still, it would likely be cheap enough that you could discard the solution every session unless you planned on printing again the following day, in which case it could be saved for use in the second session. You don't want to store the working solution for more than a couple of days since it both oxidizes and loses activity and tends to grow bacterial slime.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Michael R]

Sodium sulfite is the “gold standard” HCA, with plenty of data behind it. Heico Perma Wash might use a different mechanism, although besides ammonium sulfite and a detergent/surfactant the ingredients are trade secrets so it is difficult to say. I would stick with Kodak/Ilford or the home made variety which is functionally the same.

John,

Personally, I've always been skeptical of Heico Perma Wash and its capacity claims. "If it seems too good to be true..."

Kodak had the world's top photographic chemistry R&D labs for decades. The best they (and Ilford) could come up with for a wash aid was a sodium sulfite solution with a bit of pH adjustment (usually in the form of bisulfite/metabisulfite) and chelating agents, etc.

As far as logistics go, I have a couple comments. First I do fine with two liters of solution for 16x20 prints using Paterson 16x20 trays, which are oversized and pretty deep (that's for every solution in the process; developer, stop, fix one and two, and the wash aid). I'll wager you can get by with two liters of wash aid instead of a whole gallon, which is definitely overkill for five 16x20 prints.

Second, I second the suggestion to simply mix your own wash aid one-session using raw chemicals. If your tap water doesn't contain a lot of dissolved minerals, then a Tablespoon of sodium sulfite and a generous pinch of sodium bisulfite per liter is all you need. If you can get by using just two liters of solution then your expenditure is just two Tbsp. sulfite and a bit of bisulfite per session.

With a water rinse before the wash aid (recommended!), then the capacity for this mix is, like the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, 200 8x10s per gallon, or roughly 50 8x10s per liter (half that without the rinse before treatment in wash aid). That means you could get 25 16x20s from two liters of solution if you wanted. Still, it would likely be cheap enough that you could discard the solution every session unless you planned on printing again the following day, in which case it could be saved for use in the second session. You don't want to store the working solution for more than a couple of days since it both oxidizes and loses activity and tends to grow bacterial slime.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

Sodium sulfite is the “gold standard” HCA, with plenty of data behind it. Heico Perma Wash might use a different mechanism, although besides ammonium sulfite and a detergent/surfactant the ingredients are trade secrets so it is difficult to say. I would stick with Kodak/Ilford or the home made variety which is functionally the same.

My sentiments exactly!