Sinar shutter vs many shutters for 4x5 use

[Ian Greenhalgh]

Hi folks

I've accumulated a nice collection of lenses that would be suitable for 4x5, but most of them are repro lenses in barrel, so it would be quite costly to find shutters for them, and some would require machine work which adds even more cost.

So I'm wondering, what about using a Sinar shutter? This would allow me to use all my barrel lenses.

This is what I have for 4x5, if I don't mention the shutter, it's in barrel:

Ross WA Xpres 4/5"
TT&H Cooke Anastigmat 4.5/5.75" (not sure if it will cover 4x5)
Schneider G-Claron 8/135 (not sure if this will cover 4x5 either)
Rodenstock Apo-Gerogon 9/150
Schneider Symmar 5.6/150 in Synchro-Compur #1
Wray HR Lustrar 5.6/178
Ilex Acuton 4.8/215 in Ilex #3
Ross Xpres 4.5/8.5"
Schneider G-Claron WA 11/240
Wray Process Lustrar 10/12"
Ross Apo-Xpres 10/12" (might have got specs wrong as a friend borrowed it so I can't check)

Apart from a 90mm wide angle, I think I have all I need there, if I could use a single shutter for all apart from the two in shutters, that would save me a load of money, but I'm not the sort of person who uses lots of different lenses on a given format so I could put up with just using the Symmar 150 and Acuton 218 that have shutters and add a 90 and a 270 or 300 in shutters later if using a Sinar shutter is a no-go for some reason.

I haven't bought a 4x5 camera yet but i hope to grab a monorail in the next couple of weeks.

[Peter Yeti]

If you want a monorail, Sinar is first-rate anyway and a Sinar Copal shutter would be the natural choice. If you go for a different brand, you'd have to figure out a way to adapt the Sinar shutter to the standard and bellows. Besides of that there shouldn't be a problem.

[Ian Greenhalgh]

Cheers Peter, I have my eye on an F1. Do all Sinar monorails accept the Sinar shutter?

[Paul Ewins]

One thing to bear in mind is that the rear of the lens can't protrude through the back of the lens board or it will hit the shutter. This means that for most lenses built in the past 100 years you will need to make up a spacer for the front of the lens board because the flange is typically sited forward of the rear of the lens wheras the older brass lenses usually had it right at the rear of the lens. The big f5.6 plasmats and f8 wide angles of the 1960's needed quite a pronounced bulge on the lensboard to clear the shutter. Conversely you will want to have the rear of the lens as close to the shutter as you can so that you don't inadvertently cause vignetting, so it is better to have a board dedicated to each lens rather than swap lenses as needed.

The spacer doesn't have to be anything fancy or precision cut, it just needs to be light tight and securely attached. It isn't a big deal, but it is one more thing to deal with.

[Tin Can]

Don't forget all Sinar lens boards also fit any studio Horseman. Horseman are very heavy duty.

[JohnJ]

Ian, Sinar is nice an easy to work with so I doubt you would go too far wrong with the F1. I have an F and P and find them great but the F is really a little flimsy, IMHO.

One thing to bear in mind is that the rear of the lens can't protrude through the back of the lens board or it will hit the shutter. This means that for most lenses built in the past 100 years you will need to make up a spacer for the front of the lens board because the flange is typically sited forward of the rear of the lens wheras the older brass lenses usually had it right at the rear of the lens. The big f5.6 plasmats and f8 wide angles of the 1960's needed quite a pronounced bulge on the lensboard to clear the shutter. Conversely you will want to have the rear of the lens as close to the shutter as you can so that you don't inadvertently cause vignetting, so it is better to have a board dedicated to each lens rather than swap lenses as needed.

The spacer doesn't have to be anything fancy or precision cut, it just needs to be light tight and securely attached. It isn't a big deal, but it is one more thing to deal with.

And you can make your own lens boards too, as I've done when needed, so you don't have to buy a genuine Sinar lens board for each lens. The first images is of an aluminium plate cut to size and with black tape on the rear, works great and cost maybe a few dollars, if that. The second is a simple recessed lens board, Ian, you may need the opposite, but you can make it if you need it.

[Otto Seaman]

The easiest solution to the spacing problem is to get an additional "accessory" or "intermediate" standard. Connect the rear standard to the intermediate standard using the standard or bag bellows. Mount the Sinar shutter onto the front of the intermediate standard. Connect a second bellows to the Sinar shutter and forward to the front standard. Mount your barrel lenses on simple flat Sinar lens boards. No problems with spacing and this will save you money over the long haul. You set the aperture at the lens using the lens iris or waterhouse stops, the shutter only controls the timing.

Also look into the "Iris Clamps" that will close a aperture-type iris around any barrel mounted lens small enough to fit inside the aperture. This allows you to quickly switch lenses and saves the expense of mounting all your lenses. Gizo and Luc made various sizes.

When buying a Sinar shutter be sure to get the expensive and hard-to-find proprietary cables with the longer throw needed by the Sinar shutter.

It's not a bad idea to have a few lenses in conventional Copal or Compur shutters as well, since if the Sinar shutter breaks you're stuck.

The Sinar shutters are all the same basic design, from the Norma era (usually green hammertone) or black F-P or the last "digital" shutters from the F2-P2 time. Some of the F-P era shutters will be labeled f/4 or f/5.6 maximum aperture but the aperture requirement would only apply to proper official Sinar mounted lenses and hardware that allows the photographer to set the aperture from the rear of the camera. While it is nice if you can do that, what I am talking about above negates all those concerns....

Of the Sinar system, the F, F-Plus, and F1 are the least expensive because they have the weakest front standards that clamp wire against plastic. While most are strong enough to hold up OK, some will crack, especially as plastic gets brittle with age. It is definitely worth spending a few bucks more to get either the F2 or the original Norma series.

Sinar shutters sell for up to $500 but if you are patient or lucky to get a package deal you can often do a lot better. Also Sinar shutters are still able to be serviced by better camera repair techs like precisioncameraworks.com in Chicago. Intermediate standards are usually found for under $100 and bellows for $50. Or be smart and simply buy a second entire Sinar camera so that you can cherrypick the best parts from and keep a spare ground glass, etc. You can always sell the leftovers or use the parts to build a larger system.

OR just sell all those barrel lenses and stick with simple basic Copal shutters for a lighter, less complex system that will make photos just as well... you probably don't need all of those lenses ;-p

[Ian Greenhalgh]

Hmm, lots of food for thought, cheers guys. I will be using this camera out and about so I want something not too heavy or cumbersome, so maybe I'll end up going for something other than a monorail, we shall see. I really don't need all the lenses I listed, I'll probably pare it down to a core set of 5, we shall see, I'm still in the thinking stage.

[Lachlan 717]

Ian,

I had Shen Hao make a field camera that accepts the Sinar shutter for exactly the reasons you describe (the Shen Hao XPO).

If you're considering using a camera outside, this might be worth considering over the F1?

[Ian Greenhalgh]

That would be nice Lachlan, Ideally I'd like an old mahogany and brass field camera with a Sinar shutter.