Advice on lense (comparing 2 options)

[drew.saunders]

Hello everyone,
Am doubting about which lens to get and would be happy get advice. I have a Linhof Master Technika with only 1 lens (150/5.6 R-stock Sironar N). I am launching a portrait project and want a longer lens (for full-frame digital, my workhorse is 85mm). Want it sharp and contrasty, not too soft. Half to 3/4 body portraits, outdoors.

According to this: http://linhof.com/wp-content/uploads...technika_e.pdf
Your Master Technica can go up to 430mm of bellows. I presume that's with the rear bellows behind the "box" extended fully. Anyway, that would allow pretty close focusing with a 300mm lens if you want.

Was thinking of 210 or 240 mm (have played with the idea of a 300 but uncertain about bellows; haven't really done my research on that yet, am quite new to LF). Have seen many lenses on ebay, but most would entail shipping from Japan - hesitant, if it needs to be returned.

Now the following lens is for sale at 20 min drive from my home:
1. R-stock Sinar Sinaron SE 210/5.6, 'as new' for 1000 Euro (about the same in USD, I think). A bit pricier than I would have liked, buy it is of course a huge advantage that I can see/test it before I buy it.

Then, I just saw this on sale today:
2. Nikkor 300 f9 M, 'as new', for 700 USD (with shipping from US (to Europe), and customs on top, it will cost me as much as the Rodenstock). Had not thought about this lens at all, but love the idea of such a light lens.

What to do? Any views?
Best,
Anette

210mm is a very popular portrait format for 4x5, especially since you're looking at half to 3/4 body photos, not tight head shots. Being able to inspect the lens is possibly worth the extra cost. Does the shop test the shutters? If so, that could be worth a lot, as you'll know if you need to get the shutter overhauled or not. The top shutter speed won't be at spec, that's to be expected, but if all or many of the speeds are more than 1/3 of a stop slow, then you may want to get the shutter serviced. For 1000 Euro, hopefully they've tested and possibly serviced the shutter.

The Nikkor 300/9 M and Fuji 300/8.5 C are popular compact lenses. Eventually, one will show up in Europe that might be a better deal. When I was looking, the Fuji was cheaper (new) than the Nikkor, but now the prices of the Fuji have shot up quite a bit!

If you're looking at splitting the difference with a 240 or 250mm lens, the Fuji 250/6.3 uses a Copal 1 shutter, so it quite a bit lighter than other 240/5.6 lenses in Copal 3 shutters. The f/6.3 version doesn't cover 8x10, while the older f/6.7 version does cover 8x10, so the 6.3 is more affordable, but if you're shooting 4x5, you don't need the extra coverage anyway. I used to use a Fuji 250/6.3, but then got a Fuji Fujinar 250/4.5 and like that lens quite a bit more, so I sold the 250/6.3. The Fujinar wide open is a more "gentle focus" lens than the Plasmats, so, based on what you're looking for, might not suit you as well as the Rodenstock that you're looking at, or a similar modern lens.

Drew

[Bernice Loui]

Hello Anette,

85mm FF digital or 35mm would be about 240mm with 4x5 film. 210mm on 4x5 is closer to 60mm on FF digital or 35mm.

Lens choice should be driven by lens aperture to be used. For many decades now, the 85mm used on FF digital or 35mm has been a Canon 85mm f1.2. The most often used aperture with this 85mm is f1.2 to f4, on very seldom occasions f5.6 would be the small aperture limit.

If the lens aperture to be used is f16 to f32, any (yes any) modern Plasmat would be more than good enough long as the lens cells are good and more important the shutter is accurate, reliable, consistent and not wore out. IMO, spending 1000 EU on a 210mm f5.6 Sinaron (rodenstock sironar) is WAY too much. A common 210mm Sironar (any flavor), Schneider Symmar S, Nikkor W or similar Fujinon will do near identical at much lower cost (200 EU and up) with much higher value.

Nikkor 300mm f9 M is a fave among landscape folks as it is small, lightweight with GOOD optical performance.

For both these lenses, know they are optimized at f22 with their ideal aperture from f11 to f45 as end limits. They are designed and intended to render images with the majority of their image area in perceived focus by applying small (f16 or smaller) taking aperture. These modern lenses come in shutters with non-round iris which affects their in to out of focus transition and out of focus rendition (not as smooth as it could be as they were not designed for this).

If the portrait goals are to use a larger lens aperture, both of these lenses are not the ideal choice as they were not designed to be used in this way. Modern Plasmats (Sironar, Symmar, W series) have a full aperture of f5.6 to render a bright image on the ground glass to ease focusing, but their working aperture is commonly much smaller.

If the portrait goals are to use a large taking aperture, a f4.5 to f6.3 Tessar design (Nikkor M is a Tessar) lens with a round iris will serve better than the modern Plasmat.

As for "sharp-contrasty" majority of post WW-II single coated view camera lenses easily meets this requirement. This is rooted in the fact view camera lenses have fewer lens elements than lenses designed for FF digital or 35mm film. Fewer lens elements reduces the number of air to glass surfaces where flare-reflections happen reducing contrast. This is not true for FF digital or 35mm lenses specially zoom lenses that have a large number of lens elements and air to glass surfaces. If not for modern multi-coatings none of these complex modern zoom lenses can be designed or produced. View camera lenses are less complex placing far lower demands on the need for multi-coatings and such. That said, contrast rendition does figure into lens choice and is driven by the "look" or image goal in mind.

Resist falling into the "latest-greatest-sharpest" Foto gear trap as this alone seldom results in expressive and creative images. This does sell plenty of Foto gear at the expense of the image maker.

IMO, lighting, portrait sitter's expression and all those aspects of portraiture IS more important than lens/camera alone.

Using a 300mm lens for head/shoulder portraits on the Linhof Technika works, there is enough bellows and camera extension. Been there, done that.

Not 4x5, but 8x10 portrait lens discussion might be helpful as much of the same lens personality aspects discussed apply to 4x5.
https://www.largeformatphotography.i...t-work-on-8x10



Bernice

Hello everyone,

I am launching a portrait project and want a longer lens (for full-frame digital, my workhorse is 85mm). Want it sharp and contrasty, not too soft. Half to 3/4 body portraits, outdoors.


Was thinking of 210 or 240 mm (have played with the idea of a 300 but uncertain about bellows; haven't really done my research on that yet, am quite new to LF). Have seen many lenses on ebay, but most would entail shipping from Japan - hesitant, if it needs to be returned.

Now the following lens is for sale at 20 min drive from my home:
1. R-stock Sinar Sinaron SE 210/5.6, 'as new' for 1000 Euro (about the same in USD, I think).

Then, I just saw this on sale today:
2. Nikkor 300 f9 M, 'as new', for 700 USD (with shipping from US (to Europe), and customs on top, it will cost me as much as the Rodenstock).

What to do? Any views?
Best,
Anette

[peter brooks]

This doesn't answer your specific question but this page on large format portrait lenses is a good read:

https://www.largeformatphotography.i...rtrait-lenses/

[abruzzi]

personally, I'd look for reletively fast tessar based lens. They don't have a wide angle of coverage, but for a 240, or even a 210mm on 4x5 that won't be an issue. And tessar based lenses can be reletively fast and tend to look great even close to wide open and have nice out of focus rendition. I think the 250/4.5 Fujinar mentioned above is a tessar. I have a nice 210/6.1 Schneider Xenar which is also a tessar design, and they can be found for pretty cheap.

[AnetteB]

Thank you to all for all these messages. I almost pulled the trigger on a Schneider 210/5.6 APO Symmar, available on that Finnish site that Niels and the person in Oslo recommended, for just a little bit more than half the price of the Rodenstock I was considering. But now hesitating again. I have no idea, to be honest, what the difference is between a tessar and a plasmat design, but I'll google that one. With the advice from Bernice, Drew and abruzzi, I'll widen my search to include 250/4.5 Fujinar, Fuji 250/6.3 , perhaps 210/6.1 Schneider Xenar, and would really want to find a lense in Europe. But am impatient too... want a bit longer lens.. like yesterday.

[xkaes]

The Fujinar 25CM and the Fujinon 250MM are both 4 elements in 3 groups Tessar lenses. They are both simple, but fast f4.5 lenses and produce sharp results stopped down -- and are inexpensive -- BUT they were sold as BARREL lenses. That means you have to get a shutter to work with it. That not big obstacle, but it makes things a little more complicated for you.

That's why I suggested the Fujinon NW 250MM f6.3 which comes with a shutter. It is NOT a Tessar and has a 6/4 design, costs more, and is sharp at all f-stops.

See: http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byfl.htm

[r.e.]

You're unlikely to come across a Docter Optic tessar, but if you do, and if it's reasonably priced, give it a good look. These lenses were made from 1991 to 1996. Arne Cröll wrote an essay about them, which you can download as a .PDF from his website: Large Format Lenses from Docter Optic 1991-1996.

In the essay, the lenses that might interest you are under the heading Tessar/Doctar. I have the 210mm f/4.5 with a Copal 3 shutter.

[xkaes]

In the essay, the lenses that might interest you are under the heading Tessar/Doctar. I have the 210mm f/4.5 with a Copal 3 shutter.

That's a good point -- Tessars, even though inexpensive, require larger shutters due to their "speed".

[Bernice Loui]

Hello Anette,

Had a look at your web page to get some sense of your portrait style.
https://www.anettebrolenius.com/2252...ting-at-achmea

Based on the portrait images posted, seems a 210mm Schneider Xenar would fit well into your portrait work. This lens suggestion is based on your EU location (Fujinon was not well distributed in the EU, similar applies to Nikkor), portrait work, and some sense of how you might use lens/camera from your other images posted. Longer focal length can be had at a later time depending on how the 210mm works for you. Know 210mm is one of the most common lens focal lengths for 4x5.

Did a quick look on eBay.de (Germany) came up with this 210mm f6.1 Schneider Xenar. This specific example is the last version before Schneider discontinued production of the Xenar. Schneider has made variations of the Xenar (Tessar design) since about 1920 (uncoated) to the late 1990's (black copal shutter, possible multi-coated). There are very good reasons why the Xenar remained in production for so many decades, demand and the images it produces. Only negative to the copal shutter versions is the non-round iris, but the black shutter speed rim copal shutters were the last versions made by copal.

What you need is a proper fully functional lens that does as expected, causes no shutter grief allowing you to focus on producing portraits.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/185338590601...sAAOSwWHJiLrEg


Bernice

I'll widen my search to include 250/4.5 Fujinar, Fuji 250/6.3 , perhaps 210/6.1 Schneider Xenar, and would really want to find a lense in Europe. But am impatient too... want a bit longer lens.. like yesterday.

[Bernice Loui]

Tessar became one of the most common lens designs made for a long list of very good reasons. Due to their large aperture, they tend to come in big shutters as their focal length goes up. Decided to add a 210mm f4.5 Xenar to the 150mm and 100mm Xenar used on the Linhof Technikardan 23s. Ended up with this 210mm f4.5 xenar in a Compound shutter (preferred due to the round iris).
Attachment 225823

Schneider did make the 210mm f4.5 in a Copal# 3 shutter (not common).
https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Schneide...5/133535338411

Big lens similar to the 210mm f4.5 Fujinar.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/28471176116...wAAOSwEYliNfCf


Bernice

That's a good point -- Tessars, even though inexpensive, require larger shutters due to their "speed".