Pyro and 4x5 negatives

[Rory_3532]

Morley Baer, in his forward to Gordon Hutchings's The Book of Pyro, says a page iv:

"It was after I began to work with my own large negatives that I learned tht pyrogallol crystals combined in a prescribed formula with sulfite and carbonate made up ABC Pyro. It was many years later that I learned components could be altered in degree according to desired contrasts and that it worked well only with large negatives, no smaller than 8x10."

This would seem to suggest that Pyro does not work well, or at least does not live up to the claims made for it, when used to develop 4x5 negatives. Hutchings, in the text proper, neither expresses nor addresses such a reservation. Is the reservation correct and, if so, why?

[Alex Hawley]

It would be interesting to learn what Morley was talking about. In my brief experience with pyro, I haven't seen such a distinction between 4x5 and 8x10. However, 8x10 is easier to develop by inspection because one can see the image better than with 4x5, just due to the size.

With 4x5, I found that shadow detail and highlight detail is finer and crisper using ABC pyro than it was with Rodinal or HC110. One caution though; Tri-X and ABC easily blocks up highlights so I wouldn't recommend that combination unless contrast is low; then its beautiful.

Just my two cents worth using Tri-X, APX 100, J&C Classic 200, Rodinal, HC110, and ABC Pyro.

[Ken Lee]

There are some informative articles concerning Pyro various formulas on the web, which suggest that it can very nicely with small formats, since its grain-reducing benefit is helpful in medium format, 35mm, etc.



See An Introduction to Pyro Staining Developers,
With Special Attention to the Pyrocat-HD Formula



Also see The Effects of Pyro Stain in Platinum Printing



Also see these articles.



For what it's worth, I have had no problems with PyroCat HD in mediaum format and 4x5. For a recent sample in 4x5, see this image which was a delight to print. The highlights did not block up at all. Full Sun with no clouds, at around 9:14 AM apparently :-)

[sanking]

The issue is not that ABC Pyro does not work at all with small negatives. The problem is that it produces very large and pronounced grain. If you contact print an 8X10 negative developed in ABC Pyro grain size is not a consideration. However, if you print a 4X5 negative with enlargement of 2X and over the grain size can become very objectionable.

Some other Pyro developers such as PMK, Pyrocat-HD and WD2D+ produce more stain than ABC Pyro, and this stain masks the the grain. As much as 40-50% of the actual effective printing density of a PMK, Pyrocat-HD or WD2D+ negative is stain density, whereas that figure for ABC Pyro would typically be much less than 20%.

I assume that Morely Baer's statement was made based on his expectation that 8X10 negatives would generally be printed by contact.

[Rory_3532]

Sandy,

As someone who has written about pyro as a developer, do your comments mean that you ednorse PMK, Pyrocat-HD or WD2D+ for 4x5 negatives or that you think other developers are equivalent or better?

[Bill_1856]

I thought that one of the advantages of Pyro was that it avoids blocked-up highlights. Is this incorrect?

[sanking]

Yes, I endorse the use of PMK, Pyrocat-HD and WD2D with 4X5" film. They are all excellent general purpose developers that give very high sharpness and nice tight grain. And all are used from Stock A and B solutions that have excellent keeping qualities, much better than most other traditional developers. Each has its own charactertics, however, and might prove optimum for a particular situation as I discuss in my article on staining developers mentioned in a previous post.

In my experience the results you will get from these developers are at least as good in all lighting situations as what you can expect from the best traditional developers, and in certain lighting situations, such as backlit scenes, much better. And I don't think there are any traditional formulas out there that will give you better overall sharpness than these three developers when used with 4X5" film.

However, there are situations where another developer might be prefered. For example people who place a lot of importance of getting the finest grain possible can find finer grain formulas than PMK, Pyrocat-HD and WD2D+. Also, the practice of sensitometry is slightly more complicated with staining developers than with traditional developers.

[Bruce Watson]

Yes, I endorse the use of PMK, Pyrocat-HD and WD2D with 4X5" film.

What about when developed with a Jobo in an Expert 3010 tank?

[sanking]

No, for For Jobo and other forms of rotary development I would not recommend either PMK or WD2D+. Many people have gotten excellent results with PMK with rotary processing, but many others have experienced difficulties of one sort or the other. In fact, my own problems with PMK and rotary processing is the main reason I developed the Pyrocat-HD formula, which in my opinion on the whole gives much more consistent results with rotary processing than any of the pyrogallol based developers.

[Alex Hawley]

Bill, myself and others have reported that Tri-X developed in ABC pyro blocks up in the highlights. I haven't read nor experienced this with any other films using the ABC formula. Those that have tried Pyrocat HD with Tri-X have had good success. Don't know why Tri-X does this but it does.