210 APO Sironar-W & 210 Fujinon W (inner lettering) = 10 Fold price Difference...

[turtle]

Its interesting to note that a mint 210 Sironar-W with yellow band just sold for close to $2000 (Eur 1450), whereas a clean 210 Fujinon-W (inner lettering) can be found for 1/10th of that. Both have the same listed 352mm IC and the Fujinon is well under half the weight and in a copal 1 rather than copal 3.

Has anyone ever put the two on a 10x8 and compared the real world image circle at landscape apertures?

Could the Fuji really have just as much coverage and comparable performance under field conditions, but perhaps sacrifice a little contrast and wider aperture performance?

How could one explain the size differential? Surely that bulk goes into performance somewhere, right? The question is, does it matter much in the real world?

I am curious as to the view of those who have compared such lenses. My own use of various lenses of various vintages has shown that aside from coverage, in B&W there is no reason to spend the money on the modern lenses.

What do you think? Are you prepared to spend big money on lenses like the 210 APO Sironar W and if so, why?

[redu]

here is a previous discussion on this very topic.

[Sal Santamaura]

here is a previous discussion on this very topic.

Which does absolutely nothing to answer the OP's questions.

Unfortunately, I've never owned the 210 Apo Sironar W, so can't compare it to my 80-degree 210 Fujinon W. If you're making contact prints or relatively small magnification enlargements from negatives shot at small apertures (f/22 - f/45), bokeh won't be an issue and I can't imagine the Rodenstock being any sharper than the Fujinon, which is superb. In color, there will probably be a difference in balance.

The Fujinon is single-coated, so it likely exhibits less contrast and flare resistance than the Rodenstock, but in black and white field work I've never had anything to complain about. I don't shoot into the light, however, so, in addition to color work, that could be a situation where you'd find the Rodenstock's multicoating valuable.

[John NYC]

Its interesting to note that a mint 210 Sironar-W with yellow band just sold for close to $2000 (Eur 1450), whereas a clean 210 Fujinon-W (inner lettering) can be found for 1/10th of that.

For a while I was looking for a Sironar W, then I gave up and looked for the Fujinon. Took a while to find the Fujinon but I did via a good man here on the forum. I am glad I didn't wait for the Sironar W... I would have never paid that for one. They seem to be very rare on the used market, so maybe that is why the price is so high. I would not mind owning one for less than that though.

[Steve Hamley]

I've done it on the 180mm Apo Sironar-S versus the 180mm Fuji-W (inner lettering). I didn't test coverage, but could.

Resolution was tested by photographing a page with text in fonts from 4 to 24 point. I could distinguish no difference in the smallest readable line. I also tested if either shifted focus upon stopping down from f:5.6 by focusing at f:5.6 and f:11, then shooting at f:22. No difference. The Fuji seemed to render shadows a bit warmer.

I'd do the Fujinon versus the Apo ironar-W, and probably the S if I were doing it over. I do point out my Fuji is an extremely clean example, and I paid $199 for it.

Cheers, Steve

[turtle]

That's interesting Steve. I'm really curious about coverage, because we know that different manufacturers have different levels of optimism when it comes to IC. Now that I have re-entered 10x8, I decided to go for 18x24cm simply because I was able to get astonishingly cheap new holders and a good number of them. This should mean that all lenses have a touch more movement than on 10x8 as the film area a little smaller.

I already have 210 and 240 G clarons sitting at home waiting for me to get back (2 months from now) and I recently came across a 210 Fujinon W (inner lettering) and 240 Sironar S for 'can't pass up' prices. I know my 210 G Claron can be tight on 8x10, with movement, but the 240 is very much better. I will soon be able to make some comparisons and see if the 240 Sironar S really does provide meaningfully better 'real world' performance for my needs in return for a 4 fold increase in weight and also whether the 210 W really does have a larger useable IC at F32 and 352mm on paper than the G claron at under 270mm on paper! I have never felt the G clarons lacking once stopped down, but the smaller IC does make itself known as one opens up from F32 with the 210. I am expecting the Sironar-S to deliver significantly better contrast than the G Claron, but this is of limited importance. A much larger IC at F22 would be and this is what I expect to see. It'll be interesting, for sure.

[jeroldharter]

No comparisons, but I have the 210 Sironar W and can say that it is very sharp. Coverage is massive relative to my 21 G Claron. It is a brick though and requires large filters.

[Bob Salomon]

"we know that different manufacturers have different levels of optimism when it comes to IC"

Why? Rodenstock meets industry specifications and does not exagerate coverage. If they give you an image circle for any Apo Sironar type lens then it will give you that circle at the specified aperture (f22) at infinity with no more then 1/3rd stop fall-off center to edge.That is what it does.

It also meets the specified distortion, color curves and light fall-off curves that they also publish for their lenses.

And an Apo Sironar, of any type, is not made to photograph news print or type on a flat surface at "some distance". The N was corrected for 1:20, the S and W for 1:10. Any test comparing a process type lens to a general purpose test lens only shows that the process type lens works well for photographing a page of news print. It doesn't test the performance of the non-process type lens. If you want to compare newsprint shots then you need to compare the Apo Ronar vs other process lenses.

At some point photographers have to accept the fact that lens manufacturers are making lenses for a wide field of applications. We have recently just sold a major Ivy league University, through one of our dealers, a Rodenstock lens in the new eShutter which will be mounted in an external pod of a C-130 on a trip through arctic conditions for a project. It was critical that the engineers, the user, the project co-ordinator could all rely on the published specifications.

It does not pay for the manufacturers to "fudge" the numbers. There are too many customers out there; military, industrial, government, educational, etc. who are perfectly capable of doing their own tests to ensure that what they buy meets the published specs.

[turtle]

I would guesstimate that I get around 340mm out of my 210 G Claron at f45 if my memory serves me correctly (about five years back). I suppose the Sironar W does serve up lots more as 352mm of 'manufacturer grade IC' is achieved to stops sooner (f22).

Does the 210 Sironar W give more image circle at F32 and F45 or does it mechanically vignette?

I have always loved the 90mm-135mm range on 5x4, as do many landscape shooters, and I am surprised so few comparable FLs were so little produced by manufacturers with decent image circles for 10x8. I wonder why Rodenstock / Schneider did not make lenses one stop slower with more coverage or smaller size. A 210 F8 Sironar W would have been much smaller and much cheaper than the f5.6 and still a lot more usable than the limited 210mm 72-75 degree lenses,or struggling with a G claron 210. Its an area where Fuji got smart with their 450 12.5 and 600 11.5 C lenses and Schneider followed suit with the 350mm f11.5. If we can manage with 90mm f8 lenses on 5x4, a 210, or even 180 F8 would have been no worse!

No comparisons, but I have the 210 Sironar W and can say that it is very sharp. Coverage is massive relative to my 21 G Claron. It is a brick though and requires large filters.

[Bob Salomon]

Rodenstock gives their specs at the diffraction limited stop, f22. They do not give coverage at smaller stops. But they do give the mtf for the Apo W, N, S and Macro, series at f11 and at f22. All other specs are at f22 only on these lenses. With the Apo Grandagon's MTFs are at 8 and 11 while the Grandagons are at 11 and 22.