Super XX clone?

[panchro-press]

I've been reading with interest about the emerging films from Middle and Eastern Europe.

Does anybody know if any of these films are a match for the thick emulsion, characteristic curve of Kodak Super XX?

Dave

-30-

[Ole Tjugen]

No, they are not. All are "thin emulsion" films.

[IanG]

Fortepan 200 was the direct successor to Super XX which was made in the same factory from early 1939 in Hungary by Kodak Ltd (London). The German & Hungarian plants were controlled from the UK, but the Forte plant was nationalised after WWII by the communist regime.

So if you can find some Forte 200 it's essentially just a slightly more modern version.

Ian

[Mark Sampson]

Ten years or so ago Bergger BPF 200 was introduced in the USA; it was advertised as being similar to Super-XX. Gordon Hutchings, of PMK-Pyro fame, said that it was; other people disagreed. I tried some, a nice film, but I'd never shot Super-XX as a camera film, so can't comment. That film seems to be gone now as well, and in the tangled world of smaller b/w makers/marketers it's hard to tell who made that film or what other brand(s) it might have been sold as. Someone here will know...
I believe that the real reason Kodak kept Super-XX in production (in Rochester anyway), until 1990 or so was for dye-transfer printers. S-XX's color-response curves matched exactly, a requirement for making accurate color-separaton negatives, and no other film could do that. (I worked in a custom lab in the late '70s, where we made b/w internegatives from color transparencies on Super-XX; my only real experience with that film.)

[Jay DeFehr]

I still have a bunch of Fortepan 200 in my freezer. I don't know how similar it is to SXX. It's a nice film in its own right, but I would trade it for TMY-2 without hesitation.

[IanG]

Bergger BPF200 was re-badged Fortepan 200, and the Forte/Bergger 400 film was based on pre-WWII Tri-X.

No other manufacturer's films will be as close as the Forte films purely because that Forte plant continued making the pre WWII Kodak films under the Germans and then the Communists until the collapse of the Eastern Block.

Ian

[Michael Kadillak]

Ten years or so ago Bergger BPF 200 was introduced in the USA; it was advertised as being similar to Super-XX. Gordon Hutchings, of PMK-Pyro fame, said that it was; other people disagreed. I tried some, a nice film, but I'd never shot Super-XX as a camera film, so can't comment. That film seems to be gone now as well, and in the tangled world of smaller b/w makers/marketers it's hard to tell who made that film or what other brand(s) it might have been sold as. Someone here will know...
I believe that the real reason Kodak kept Super-XX in production (in Rochester anyway), until 1990 or so was for dye-transfer printers. S-XX's color-response curves matched exactly, a requirement for making accurate color-separaton negatives, and no other film could do that. (I worked in a custom lab in the late '70s, where we made b/w internegatives from color transparencies on Super-XX; my only real experience with that film.)

I read the same article in View Camera Magazine and immediately went out and purchased the film. When I plotted it up I quickly realized that selective utilization of the data was being employed in the write up that was not conveying the complete story. Yes, the film curve has a very linear straight line "middle" section (that under normal circumstances can be quick effective for conventional silver printers) until the curve takes a hard right and tends to flattens out. If you do not plot the WHOLE film curve does not mean that it is not there. If any author is going to make a quantitative comparison of any film it should be representative of the full Monty apples to apples particularly considering that alt process photographers and Azo printers that look for the linear "to the moon" density building character of Super XX. Seemed to me to be more sales hype and opinion journalism than scientific in nature but maybe that is just me. I have Super XX in my freezer and it does precisely that.

There is no question that the closest thing to Super XX in the complete spectrum of sheet film offerings is T Max 400, which just so happens to be sharper than its former Kodak counterpart.

[Jim Noel]

I agree with Michael. I have tested every "clone" when announced and compared it with some of the Super XX which I still have. Although some have had a relatively straight middle section, they either have too much toe, or too much shoulder. I have not found anything close.

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael has this one right. The straight line of TMax 400 really allows you leeway in shooting and development. A nice film.
Bergger sucked big time. You could develop it, see you needed expansion while developing and so develop it longer. No change, it just got to a point and did nothing more than start to fog. For pushing a bit and expansion development it was as responsive as wet flour tortillas.

Now if only Kodak would quit playing games with Tmax 400 availability, sizes and packaging it would be one I would gladly use. As it is, non-availability in some normal sizes and 10 sheeet boxes in 8x10 keep me shooting Ilford.

Up to this point in time I had considerable respect for Gordon Hutchings and accepted the conclusions of his article without hesitation. After the fact I was terribly disappointed that he wasted my time with such a misguided conclusion. Gordon will never be labeled as lacking in the cranial department when it comes to photography so it sure sounds like he was more interested in financially representing Bergger than writing a truthful article. It happens.

While I wish things were different with Kodak. That said I know for a fact that their film is available in 8x10 so I am getting ready for a 30 box order of 8x10 and have a dozen old 50 sheet boxes to personally package it in for my freezer. My conclusion is having access to the nest film available trumps the packaging inconvenience.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm starting to shoot my last box of 8x10 Bergger 200, which is my favorite film ever in this format. After that, it will be TMax400. Bergger 200 is a straight line film with very little toe, and in this respect just like Super XX but finer grained. The
spectral sensitivity is also very similar. Where it differs it that it doesn't push well
above N+1 or N+2, so in this respect might have disappointed contact printers using
it for very long-scale media. Another discontinued product, Fomapan 200 (aka Classic 200, Arista 200) had even less toe (virtually none) and could be developed
to higher contrast, but had a number of quality control issues and certainly wasn't
a true 200 speed film. The new TMax400 has a bit of toe, but much less than most
films, and relatively long straight line. It's ability to be pushed to high contrast has
so far evaded me, at least without distorting the straight line. No problem for a
projection printer like me, but contact printer have different issues. Bear in mind that I have tested these films not only for general black and white work but for very
criticial color separation use which demands a matching straight line in all three separations, which has been plotted with a densitometer.