Color heliar

**swmcl** · 15-Nov-2010, 21:12

Hello all,

I understand there are a great number of variants to the heliar over the years but...

Was there a single-coated range and then a 'color' range - or was it that the coated variants were actually suited to color?

Are all the color varieties engraved as such?

Are the coated varieties pretty much all the same in terms of perfomance?

I'm assuming there were coated vatieties before the word color was engraved on them...

Perhaps I shouldn't use any heliar with color anyway ... I must admit that I have the thought that heliars are probably better left to the B&W world ... as is the case for a great many of the older lenses

Rgds,

Steve

**LFFB** · 19-Nov-2010, 21:21

There was "color Heliar" for Bessa II. (6x9)

**Jim Galli** · 19-Nov-2010, 21:33

Color Heliar was made for the smaller rollfilm camera markets. I haven't paid a lot of attention, but I don't think you'll find one larger than 105mm. I'll let others tackle the color / coatings questions. A 'color Heliar' for the larger formats is probably going to say Lanthar on it and be incredibly expensive. Now if you don't mind working at f9, the APO Skopar's are spectacular, heliar type, and I think one of the very best values out there just now. I think they're sleeper's. Shhhhh............

**swmcl** · 20-Nov-2010, 03:32

Many thanks.

I did assume LF lenses BTW.

I have seen 'coated' Heliars but don't recall ever seeing a 'Color Heliar' as an LF lens so I thought I'd ask.

I presume then that the coated will be better in terms of contrast but it isn't an actual re-forming of the lens to suit colour if you can see what I'm trying to say. I suppose if they did that it would be called a APO Heliar!

So strictly, the Heliar in LF is always a B&W lens. Its just that the later versions are better in terms of contrast. This is my summation anyway!

Mind you ... this probably still doesn't mean they aren't mighty fine on colour! Even the uncoated varieties.

Here's the rub. I just got a coated version. I bet I won't be able to see much of a difference with an uncoated variety.

Thanks again. Much appreciated.

**Arne Croell** · 20-Nov-2010, 03:40

Originally Posted by Jim Galli

Color Heliar was made for the smaller rollfilm camera markets. I haven't paid a lot of attention, but I don't think you'll find one larger than 105mm. I'll let others tackle the color / coatings questions. A 'color Heliar' for the larger formats is probably going to say Lanthar on it and be incredibly expensive. Now if you don't mind working at f9, the APO Skopar's are spectacular, heliar type, and I think one of the very best values out there just now. I think they're sleeper's. Shhhhh............

Jim is absolutely right. The Color-Heliar was a new Heliar version developed by A. Tronnier for Voigtländer after WWII. He also calculated a new Skopar (a Tessar type) version, the Color-Skopar which is much better than the prewar one (note, this is not the Apo-Skopar Jim mentions, which is a Heliar/Dynar type); and the Apo-Lanthars are also improved "Heliars" from Tronnier. However, both the Color-Heliar and Color-Skopar were only made in shorter focal lengths up to 105mm (for 6x9cm). Longer than that, it was either the coated version of the older Heliar or the Apo-Lanthar.

That being said, I do own a 21cm (210mm) prototype lens from Voigtländer in barrel that says Color-Heliar on it. However, I measured the lens radii on it with a spherometer, and they are exactly the same as on an Apo-Lanthar, and the front lens is radioactive as well, like in the Apo-Lanthar whereas the Color Heliar does not contain lenses made from Thorium glass. So apparently their initial planned name for the Apo-Lanthar was also Color-Heliar, despite the fact that they are slightly different lenses (there are different patents out for both the small format Color-Heliar [US 2645156] and the Apo-Lanthar [US 2645154]), but they changed it to Apo-Lanthar before it came to market.

**Arne Croell** · 20-Nov-2010, 03:46

Originally Posted by Steve McLevie

Many thanks.

I did assume LF lenses BTW.

I have seen 'coated' Heliars but don't recall ever seeing a 'Color Heliar' as an LF lens so I thought I'd ask.

I presume then that the coated will be better in terms of contrast but it isn't an actual re-forming of the lens to suit colour if you can see what I'm trying to say. I suppose if they did that it would be called a APO Heliar!

So strictly, the Heliar in LF is always a B&W lens. Its just that the later versions are better in terms of contrast. This is my summation anyway!

Mind you ... this probably still doesn't mean they aren't mighty fine on colour! Even the uncoated varieties.

Here's the rub. I just got a coated version. I bet I won't be able to see much of a difference with an uncoated variety.

Thanks again. Much appreciated.

The "Color" addition was more of a marketing gimmick after WWII to designate a new lens, since color film was the new big thing then. The Heliar has been an achromatic lens from its invention, so it is perfectly fine for color. I am usually a b/w guy, but I used a coated 240mm Heliar with color film at a friends wedding some years ago, and everything was fine!

**Ernest Purdum** · 24-Nov-2010, 09:58

The original question indicates confusion regarding the function of lens coating. It is intended to reduce the non-image forming light entering the camera and thus improve contrast.

Whether single or multiple, coating has no part in color correction.

**Hugo Zhang** · 24-Nov-2010, 10:56

Originally Posted by Jim Galli

Color Heliar was made for the smaller rollfilm camera markets. I haven't paid a lot of attention, but I don't think you'll find one larger than 105mm. I'll let others tackle the color / coatings questions. A 'color Heliar' for the larger formats is probably going to say Lanthar on it and be incredibly expensive. Now if you don't mind working at f9, the APO Skopar's are spectacular, heliar type, and I think one of the very best values out there just now. I think they're sleeper's. Shhhhh............

Don't know much about color Heliar, but I have to say that I like my APO Skopar lenses a lot. I have 30cm, 45cm and 75cm and they are all very very sharp with deep rich contrast. Just to show you what a sleeper Jim means: a guy tried to sell a 75cm APO Skopar for two years on ebay lowering the price from $900 too the way to $450(?) before it was sold. That focal length is rare and even not in Voigtlander's catalogues.

**Dan Fromm** · 24-Nov-2010, 13:01

Hugo, that ain't nothin'. And you haven't been paying attention.

Please see post #120 at the bottom of this http://www.largeformatphotography.in...=64481&page=12 page. I have the lens in hand, it is beautiful.

**swmcl** · 24-Nov-2010, 14:46

I think that's the beauty of the Heliar - that it doesn't have dramatic contrast! The Apo lens might be better suited to other things - not portraiture. Yes?

Anyway, there are a billion super-corrected lenses out there. I can't see a 60's or 70's Apo lens offering much different to what is commonly available off the shelf. Maybe not in such huge glass but one does want to use it and manage it after all ...

It gets a bit silly in my opinion but each to his own.

Rgds,