Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

[Steven Tribe]

Another lens scratched number from Lerebours et Secretan. 6582. It looks as though it is just a single surface edge that is marked. But I'll check later to see if there are others behind the dirt/mount. This one has Waterhouse stops installed. Done well, but a different style from an obvious ex-maker one I have which is a few years later 8648.

And then there is the other L & S Petzval I got to-day! This is as early as serial no. 2113. This has lens engraving too. It is only on the inside lens surface of both cells, so is not nearly as apparent as the later outside surface markings. This pushes the start of Lerebours concerns back to 1846 or 1845.

[Steven Tribe]

Unless anyone objects strongly, I would like to start a running lerebours et secretan serial number list here as the thread title seems very appropriate. I'll start with the P et P listing which mention all the types made in the 1840s and 50s and gives them a reference number. Then their serial number dating periods. Finally we can add the lenses we know and include details of lens scratching, if present.

[Steven Tribe]

This an attempt to put some order into known Lerebours et Secretan lenses in terms of consecutive serial numbers and (hopefully) some dates. Confirmed foreign agent sales (just J.F.Shew of London at the moment) will also included when there is a serial number.

This is the current most reliable allocation of serial numbers to dates. The start at 2,000 looks realistic and the production (Under different names) before 1845 could have been around 2,000.

1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

Lowest number reported by them (Pont et Princelle) is 2012 and highest is 12609! So total production is around 10,000 lenses with serial numbers.

Sources include lenses mentioned in this thread, auction records, own lenses, Corrado's book and the lenses illustrated in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Lenses without descriptions are Petzvals. SRC means lens scratching identified! Cup means the presence (or evidence) of the insert washer stop system.

1845
XXXXno serial number. ordinary Petzval - late WHS but full engraving retained. Antiq photo paris.
2012 mentioned by P et P - but not shown
2046 Mounted achromat from 81mm Petzval. SRC first example?
2113 1/2 plate size SRC
2125. Complex lid landscape
2140. cup landscape (variant type)
2200. 1/2 plate andrew plume info
2323. verre combine design cup
2467. 1/2 plate size without WHS conversion. Original cup insert .Double scratched achromat F4.5 220mm.
2482. 1/2 plate size both lenses with SRC.Original cup insert present. No WHS conversion.
2664. 1/2 plate size SRC original cup insert (screw in washer washers) “Lerebours et Secretan” scratched on edge of front achromat.”2564” on lenses - so brass engraving should have been 2562 or?
2708. Complex lid landscape
2722. 1/2 plate without WHS conversion with cup washer set clean. Antiq-photo july 2023
3237 small petzval no WHS
3492. cup
3568. Small Petzval. Cut for WHS. Neglected EBay nov. 2022.
3636
3811.
3830. Cup present no WHS Petzval EBay listing february 2021
4008. cup - later WHS -ebay listing
4093. cup
4229. Cup discarded. Baffle mounted within barrel restricting aperture considerably. Good glass but very weathered brass EBay nov. 2022
4381. small petzval. SCR ( Digits are more separated than later serial numbers and larger - visable on Ebay listing feb 2019
4391. cup (ebay listing)Fabrice
4437 Pill box landscape
4485. 1/2 plate Petzval SCR on at least achromatic, no WHS a conversion EBay June 2023
4655
4664. 1/2 plate Petzval no WHS ( so sold with cup aperture system)
4675 Petzval SPIRA COLLECTION - rear group scratched with 4668
4993 Petzval no WHS (cup aperture lost) antiq-photo paris
5201. 1/1 plate very original 310mm, Achromat with serial number etched both sides. Insert lens hood present.

1850?

5250. 1/2 plate Whs
5334 1/2 plate very complete and original with 3 washer stops/ available January 2021
5389. 1/2 good original condition but cup insert lost. Engraved with importer/retailer name
J.Atkinson Liverpool established 1845. UK Auction 2022. SCR in both cells
5431. Petzval antiq photo paris
5541. cup
5685. petzval SPIRA collection SCR
5697. 1/4 plate(?) cup insert present . Without later WHS modification UK auction february 2022.
5948 Small Petzval SCR present front and rear. Unusual later Waterhouse slot in barrel not sleeve EBay June 2020
*6034. J.F.Shew import ca 90mm 1/4 plate F.3. The earliest London Lerebours.
6047 small petzval 40mm lens SCR
6072 1/2 plate size poor brass but intact with no WHS modification-cup stops lost EBay June 2023.
There is a very big gap here. Considering that we know that Lerebours used alternative sales after this period, I think that perhaps most of these missing numbers were used in a way that has yet to be discovered
*6376. J.F.Shew(engraved JFS) Landscape SCR November 2022 Personal Communication. Poor brass
6422. Pill box landscape
*6425 J.F.Shew import landscape SCR Missing front aperture.
*6431. J.F.Shew import landscape not scratched. Missing drive but with aperture stop.Same brass and size as 6425.
*6477. J.F.Shew import SCR
*6582. Whs. Single surface with SCR. Rear cell splits into two sections. No Lerebours
writing but achromat has clear pencil writing " Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street
London 61+2". Must be 1855 or earlier as company was short lived
*6628. J.F.Shew SPIRA Collectionstereo pair mounted on sliding box camera
6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018 3 lens surfaces have
SCR
6725 mounted on late sliding box camera 1/4 plate SCR cup insert present not converted to WHS
6821. both sides of the same rear lens have SCR. No WH Slot. 1/4 plate size.
6831. EBay 10/2022 SCR 1/2 plate converted to WHS
6865. large 81mm pill box landscape SCR
6984. small landscape SCR
7007 Small Petzval on sliding box camera.Front cell shows a lot of bare threads and gear box is from a rare later style. EBay offer Dec. 2022.
*7081. J.F.Shew import

7093 Identical landscape with pill box - same as 6426. antik-photo paris.
7442. large 80mm Petzval SCR original cup insert with loose washer and retaining ring lens hood cap No WHS stop ebay october 2019
7492. petzval no added WHS SCR ( both surfaces of same lens) Lens hood/cup insert lost
7456 landscape with pill box. SCR.Complete with added Waterhouse slot/cutout. See here https://apenasimagens.com/en/objecti...s-et-secretan/
7556. large petzval SCR but different numbers 7815 added WHStops.
7696. hood lost
7799. cup & seal intact SCR
7815. see serial number 7556
7927. Whs

1855?

8169. 1/4 plate. hood & cup insert present. No WHS. Ebay august 2018.
8247. Pill box landscape
8249. Whs
8323. cup
8454. cup engraved with dealer "john Mawson Newcastle" so it passed through his hands before 1860 as he formed a partnership with Joseph Swan in 1860.*
8473 SCR on all lenses original cup insert no WHS conversion also engraved with "John Mawson Newcastle" 57 mm Petzval
8519. no Whs!
8572. landscape
8648. whs
8813 stereo Petzval SCR
8816. stereo Landscape SCR
8916. cup
8941. cup
9381. 1/2 plate clean SCR no WHS conversion but cup stop gone eBay june 2023
9436. pill box landscape
9442. cup and SCR
9675. landscape cup
9683. Landscape pill box Spanish sale April 2021
9699. 81mm Petzval missing some optics (eBay listing feb. 2020)
9764. pill box landscape
9783. small Petzval SCR
98(37?) pill box landscape ebay risting
10038. WHS modification strange “camera”Secretan stamp antiq-photo Paris october 2022
10127. stereoset landscape cup
10173. 81mm Petzval no cup, SCR (?) or WHS.
10295 Pill box landscape (ebay)
10402. cup
10536. Large pill box Landscape SCR
10717. 1/6 plate pill box eBay Dec 2023 minus focussing drive markant patina!
10855. pill box landscape
10892. Small Petzval with intact cup aperture eBay Jan 2022

1860?

11059. simplified barrel landscape lens antiq photo october 2022
11358. Whs
11569.
11613. small Petzval- adapted to fit NIKON but without WHS Japan ebay
11773. Whs
11779. Whs
12006
12103. Whs
12157 pill box landscape
12309. pill box landscape antiq photo paris
12334. pill box landscape
12413. Petzval WHS
12609


I think it is clear from the distribution of serial numbers after about 1850, that Lerebours did not produce very many lenses for a period - at least the brasswork. It looks like he could still produce glass - or had a good stock of lenses. These appear to have "dumped" on the nearest big market - London - which was without the political problems in France. We know about J.F.Shew and Bland & Long, but there are likely others to be discovered.

[Amedeus]

Unless anyone objects strongly, I would like to start a running lerebours et secretan serial number list here as the thread title seems very appropriate. I'll start with the P et P listing which mention all the types made in the 1840s and 50s and gives them a reference number. Then their serial number dating periods. Finally we can add the lenses we know and include details of lens scratching, if present.

Adding one of my Sinar board mounted lenses here:

L&S, landscape lens, 360mm, f16, no flange but complete with 2 WHS and cap. Serial #8,247, no glass etchings observed.

I'll get to the yet unmounted smaller Petzvals later.

Cheers,

[Andrew Plume]

I used to own s/n 2200 - standard portrait Petzval which would have covered quarter to half plate

Andrew

[Steven Tribe]

I used to own s/n 2200 - standard portrait Petzval which would have covered quarter to half plate

Andrew

I would find it difficult not to hang onto a lens from 1846! I have 2113 now and it is going nowhere!

[Steven Tribe]

Adding one of my Sinar board mounted lenses here:

L&S, landscape lens, 360mm, f16, no flange but complete with 2 WHS and cap. Serial #8,247, no glass etchings observed.

I'll get to the yet unmounted smaller Petzvals later.

Cheers,

Added.

I am leaning towards the conclusion that the cup front washer system was available (perhaps standard) until their demise around 1863. I have been unable to see a standard system of cutting out the Waterhouse rectangle in the barrel sleeve - even for those made after 1860. Lens scratching started as early as no. 2113 (with an accepted start of production serial numbers at ca. 2001) and there is quite late example on the list! There are six surfaces to check on a Petzval and some have only one or two sides marked.

[Steven Tribe]

This, I think, is an interesting development concerning serial number 6582 - which I mentioned in post #61.

This has a very acceptible engraving and the single lens scratch marking matches with the serial number.

I did a strip and clean to-day and was very surprised. There were no edge pencil marks relating to Lerebours. There were some darker areas which suggested that there had been markings early on. On the front achromat, written in an unusually neat script was "Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street London. 61 +2". This is unlikely to be the name of the name of a repair company as Long left the company around 1856.

In addition there were a couple of anomalies. The rear cell can be split into two halves - each with a mounted lens and the distance ring is permantly mounted. I happen to have the same sized Petzval from Lerebours no.8646. The glass is the same along with the distance between the cells, but barrel is a couple of mms. less in diameter in "Bland Long" version. Similarly, threads are not the same (imperial vs. metric?) and the hood is not so prominent on the "Bland Long". Now Lerebours made good brass, but I have to say that the "Bland Long" has quite superb threads - even after 160 years. I also happen to have a CdeV Bland lens from a bit later in the 1850's and quality and finish is the same as the Bland and Long Lerebours.

Now we already know that J.F.Shew was selling complete Lerebours lenses at the same time (and serial numbers) in London. Perhaps Bland and Long had brass manufacture facilities that could help Lerebours with some extra manufacture and sales during "problems" in France?

So perhaps the scenario is:

Lenses made in France, serial number scratched there. Sent to London. Bland and Long make the brass (deviating slightly from Lerebours traditions!) add the company name. Sleeve engraving added in France. Sold in London?

[Amedeus]

Acquired a front achromat in cell with hood with serial rice writing of 2064. There's a lot of dark mass evidence writing on edge of the element but nothing that is readable any longer. There's absolutely no separation, so most likely this one has been re-cemented a few times over life. Diameter is 80.7mm, qualifies as an 81mm cell in my book.

The soldered-in barrel was clearly sheared off, I'm assuming the back-end didn't survive ...

Must have been a good size Petzval in the days ;-)

Edit: that would be a very early example of rice writing ????

Cheers,

[Steven Tribe]

Very interesting, because....

Within the last week I have had a PM from a very astute and experienced UK member about another 81mm front achromat - in non-Lerebours brass! - with the edge scratched number of 2964.

I have come to the conclusion that edge serial number scratching is not a "prevention of fraud", but more a method of keeping tabs of the glass he ( Lerebours OR Lerebours et Secretan) provided for people who made the brasswork.

Note that these 2000 serial numbers are around 1845/6.

Remember that the achromats used in landscape lenses and the front cell in Petzvals were identical. 81mm was a popular size for Lerebours and most serial numbers in the 2000's are Landscapes - so perhaps the achromat was used in a UK landscape lens around 1846?