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Thread: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

  1. #101

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    Adding one more to this list

    Serial 4664, Petzval, no WHS, still has lens cap but no flange. Two out of three elements marked with this serial number. Lens diameter ~60mm, didn't pull them out of the cells.

    Serial 6821, Petzval, no WHS, no flange, no hood. Two out of three elements marked with the serial number. Lens diameter ~47mm, didn't pull them out of the cells. This lens is already on the list I believe.

    Cheers,

    Rudi

  2. #102

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by anachromatic View Post
    And here the whole "team" of Lerebours and Lerebours & Secretan Petzval lenses without serial number...!
    I have to ask the obvious - did you check for any "rice" lens edge scratches on this collection?
    It would be nice to have 2001, 2002 and 2003 on the serial number list!

    I have added the 1/2 plate 4664 to the list.

  3. #103

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    I have other Lerebours lenses and they all have a serial number on the barrell, and the same serial number scratched on the glass edge:

    An small Petzval #9783.
    An small "paysage achromatique" #6984.
    A big "paysage achromatique" #10536.
    An stereoscopic Petzval #8813.
    An stereoscopic "paysage achromatique" #8816.

    But the 6 early Petzvals of the last photo, have no serial number or scratched number on the glass.
    ...in Instagram as ATELIER PETZVAL.

  4. #104

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    In addition, this lens has on the sunshade the address of "rue Bourbon le Château 2", an address in which Gaudin operated between 1855 and 1857 approximately.
    If it was one of the first Gaudin lenses, the address would be "Faubourg Montmartre 56" or eventually "rue Montmartre 76".
    ...in Instagram as ATELIER PETZVAL.

  5. #105

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    I have done a minor clean-up on the serial number list in post #63. There have been quite a few additions this year. It seems to confirm that lens scratchings have always been standard for Lerebours et Secretan since the start of using serial numbers in 1845!

    I havn't included the group of pre-serial number - engraved as - Lerebours & Secretan, which preceded the serial number lenses with the Lerebours et Secretan engraving.

    I have looked more critically at the JFS (J.F.Shew) lenses I have with Lerebours serial number glass. There is a brass lens hood that has a very clear "JAMIN" stamping inside. I note that knurling on the hood matches the knurling on the front lens cell, so it not a question of a misplaced lens hood in the last 150 years! So perhaps the friendship between Lerebours and Jamin included supplying lenses for Jamin's enterprises in the early 1850.
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 11-Sep-2018 at 06:07.

  6. #106

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018

    Confining that this lens has the rice writing on three lenses. There are pencil marks on the rear negative lens but it is firmly wedged in the holder and I've not been able to remove it yet without jeopardizing the glass. There was a number on the front achromat but that one is no longer complete/legible.

    Cheers,

  7. #107

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Amedeus View Post
    6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018

    Confining that this lens has the rice writing on three lenses. There are pencil marks on the rear negative lens but it is firmly wedged in the holder and I've not been able to remove it yet without jeopardizing the glass. There was a number on the front achromat but that one is no longer complete/legible.

    Cheers,
    I have added the new info about 6651! Glad it didn't disappear into the unknown! I was a low bidder early on and a "best offer" participant. I was in London during the showdown.

  8. #108

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    2046 added (Sorry about the delay) as well as 4381.
    I'll bring the serial number listing forward sometime this weekend as it back on page 6 now.
    I think I have found another UK lens seller who used Lerebours glass in the 1850's.

  9. #109

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    Lerebours 9116 with matching glass rice writing confirmed ... glass diameter 115mm ... 500mm, f4.5

    Cheers,

  10. #110

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    Re: Lerebours Serial Number - Rice Writing

    The old list was way back on page 6, so this time I have moved it forward in front of all the posts about lerebours and the non-serial number and alternative early engravings post of last year.
    Note that I have suggested that the apparent missing numbers between 5541 to 6422 could be a bulk disposal through other outlets, which we know was the case just after this date.
    They could perhaps make lenses, but had lost their brass turning facilities.



    This an attempt to put some order into known Lerebours et Secretan lenses in terms of consecutive serial numbers and (hopefully) some dates. Confirmed foreign agent sales (just J.F.Shew of London at the moment) will also included when there is a serial number.

    This is the current most reliable allocation of serial numbers to dates. The start at 2,000 looks realistic and the production (Under different names) before 1845 could have been around 2,000.

    1839 - 1845. no serial numbers
    1839 until,at least, July 1843, all lenses engraved just “Lerebours a Paris”. A catalogue exists from this date. There are plenty of examples of the lenses on page 10 of this thread (Anachromatic).
    Soon after this date, engravings became “Lerebours et Secretan. a Paris”. The engraving style is very similar to post 1845 but the text runs along the brass sleeve, rather than across it. Other apparent differences compared with post 1845 lenses with engraved serial numbers are:-

    Front achromat in Petzvals are lathe mounted compared with usual screw ring in the rear cells.
    No early “ghost” serial numbers (for example 0-2000) scratched on the lens surfaces.
    No pencil or ink makings on lens edges apart from a single (finished OK, perhaps) symbol.
    Matching symbols on sleeve is not digits , but spots.

    1845. - 1850. 2000 to 5000
    1850 - 1855. 5000 to 8000
    1855. - 1860. 8000 to 11000
    1860 - 1865. 11000 to 12900

    Lowest number reported by them (Pont et Princelle) is 2012 and highest is 12609! So total production is around 10,000 lenses with serial numbers.

    Sources include lenses mentioned in this thread, auction records, own lenses, Corrado's book and the lenses illustrated in the Pont et Princelle booklet. Lenses without descriptions are Petzvals. SRC means lens scratching identified! Cup means the presence (or evidence) of the insert washer stop system.

    1845

    2012 mentioned by P et P - but not shown
    2046 Mounted achromat from 81mm Petzval. SRC first example?
    2113 1/2 plate size SRC
    2125. Complex lid landscape
    2128. 1/2 plate no glass no WHS conversion - with drive and flange! EBay australia august 2023.
    2140. cup landscape (variant type)
    2323. verre combine design cup
    2467. 1/2 plate size without WHS conversion. Original cup insert.Double scratched achromat F4.5 220mm
    2483. 1/2 plate all lenses withSRC. Original cup, No WHS.
    2664. 1/2 plate SRC cup insert present.”Lerebours et Secretan” marked in Ground glass edge of achromat 2564 on SRC!
    2708. Complex lid landscape
    2722. 1/2 plate without WHS with cup washer set clean antiq-photo july 2023
    3173. 360mm Landscape meniscus Aperture lid missing.
    3237 small petzval no WHS
    3492. cup
    3568 Small Petzval WHS neglected eBay nov 2022
    3636
    3811.
    3830. No WHS cup present eBay feb 2021
    4008. cup - later WHS -ebay listing
    4093. cup
    4229. No cup, baffle mounted internaliseret. Good glass but very weathered brass eBay nov 2022
    4381. small petzval. SCR ( Digits are more separated than later serial numbers and larger - visable on Ebay listing feb 2019
    4391. cup (ebay listing)Fabrice
    4437 Pill box landscape
    4485. 1/2 plate SCR on at least achromat no WHS conversion eBay june 2023
    4655
    4664. 1/2 plate Petzval no WHS ( so sold with cup aperture system)
    4675. Petzval Spira. Collection. SCR but with number4668
    4993 Petzval no WHS (cup aperture lost) antiq-photo paris
    5201 1/1 very original 310mm achromat SCR both sides

    1850?

    5250. 1/2 plate Whs
    5334 1/2.plate v’er complete/original 3 washer inserts with cup
    5389. 1/2 plate original but cup insert lost engraved also with retailer J.Atkinson Liverpool Ukraine auction 2022
    5431. Petzval antiq-photo Paris
    5541. cup
    5685. petzval Spira collection SCR
    5697. Small Petzval 40mm lens SCR no WHS
    5948. Small Petzval SCR both lenses EBay June 2020
    6034. JFS (Shew) import 1/4 plate Earliest concealed UK sale.
    6047. Small Petzval SCR
    6072. 1/2 plate poor brass but no WHS

    There is a very big gap here. Considering that we know that Lerebours used alternative sales after this period, I think that perhaps most of these missing numbers were used in a way that has yet to be discovered

    6376. J.F.Shew (engraved JFS) landscape SCR
    6407. Small Petzval 1/4 plate 40mm SCR
    6422. Pill box landscape
    6426. J.F.Shew import landscape SCR
    6431. J.F.Shew import not scratched identical brass to 6426
    6477. J.F.Shew import SCR
    6582. Whs. Single surface with SCR. Rear cell splits into two sections. No Lerebours
    writing but achromat has clear pencil writing " Bland - Long. 153 Fleet Street
    London 61+2". Must be 1855 or earlier as company was short lived.
    6628 J.F.Shew import SCR
    6651. 1/2 plate No WHS slot cup insert gone - ebay august 2018 3 lens surfaces have
    SCR
    6725. Mounted on late sliding box camera 1/4 plate
    6821. both sides of the same rear lens have SCR. No WH Slot. 1/4 plate size.
    6831. 1/2 plate SCR WHS conversion EBay oct 2022
    6965. Large pill box 81mm landscape
    6984. small landscape SCR
    7007. Small Petzval on sliding box camera front cell doubtful
    7081. J.F.Shew import
    7093 Identical landscape with pill box - same as 6426. antik-photo paris.
    7442. Large 80mm Petzval cup insert no WHS ebay oct 2019
    7456. Pill box landscape SCR
    7492. Petzval SCR no WHS
    7556. large petzval SCR but different numbers 7815 added WHStops.
    7696. hood lost
    7799. cup & seal intact SCR
    7815. see serial number 7556
    7927. Whs

    1855?

    8169. 1/4 plate. hood & cup insert present. No WHS. Ebay august 2018.
    8247. Pill box landscape
    8249. Whs
    8323. cup
    8334. 1/2 plate incomplete Petzval rear double convex missing no WHS modification SCR on remaining lenses EBay sept 2023
    8454. cup engraved with dealer "john Mawson Newcastle" so it passed through his hands before 1860 as he formed a partnership with Joseph Swan in 1860.*
    8474 Also sold by John Mawson cup insert present no WHS 57mm 1/2 plate
    8519. no Whs!
    8572. landscape
    8648. whs
    8813 stereo Petzval SCR
    8816. stereo Landscape SCR
    8916. cup
    8941. cup
    9116 large Petzval SCR
    9381 1/2 plate clean SCR no WHS conversion cup insert gone ebau jun 2024
    9436. pill box landscape
    9442. cup and SCR
    9675. landscape cup
    9683. Lamdscape pill box Spanish dealer April 2021
    9699. 81mm Petzval optics missing? Ebay Feb 2020
    9764. pill box landscape
    9783. small Petzval SCR
    98(37?) pill box landscape ebay risting
    10038 Strange camera Secretan WHS antiq
    10127. stereoset landscape cup
    10402. cup
    10536. Large pill box Landscape SCR
    10855. pill box landscape

    1860?

    11358. Whs
    11569. Whs
    11773. Whs
    11779. Whs
    12006
    12103. Whs
    12157 pill box landscape
    12309. pill box landscape antiq photo paris
    12334. pill box landscape
    12609


    I think it is clear from the distribution of serial numbers after about 1850, that Lerebours did not produce very many lenses for a period - at least the brasswork. It looks like he could still produce glass - or had a good stock of lenses. These appear to have "dumped" on the nearest big market - London - which was without the political problems in France. We know about J.F.Shew and Bland & Long, but there are likely others to be discovered.
    Last edited by Steven Tribe; 13-Oct-2023 at 03:49. Reason: Details 8334

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