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Thread: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

  1. #1

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    8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Hi,

    Just developed my first 8x10 B&W shots (one of the cat, another of a chair haha) and I'm experimenting with Vuescan 8.6.38 on a Mac Pro 1,1 with OSX 10.6.4 and 12GB ram. Scanner is an Epson V700.

    I'm using the "film area guide" on the glass bed as my betterscanning mounting station thing only works for 4x5. Because the film was peeling up from the heat of the scan, I am scoth taping the edges down so that it stays reasonably flat (meanwhile I'm looking for suggestions on who can get me AN glass that I can just lay on top of the film).

    So, the major issue I am running into is that I can't get a scan over 1.2GB in size. No matter if I select 1600 or 3200 DPI, I get 12700 x 15700 dimensions, and the file size is 1.2GB. 3200 DPI takes like 2+ hours, however. I'm scanning 48bit RGB so that I have the most info to work with for photoshop.

    As I understand it, the V700 in this mode will only scan 800 dpi, 1600, 3200, etc and the other in-between resolutions (2400, etc) are interpolated. Otherwise, I would use 2400, as the endless arguments that abound seem to say that 2400 is about all this scanner can do anyhow.

    I would like to be able to make a really large scan and then reduce down, which if course I can do now, but I'm a little disappointed, if only because my Nikon 9000 can do just about as good from a 6x7...

    Is this a vuescan thing? I have a silverfast license from my OSX 10.4 days (3 weeks ago), but I'm not sure I have the binary (which probably means I'd have to upgrade my license and pay them in order to access any binary at all), and I like vuescan better anyhow from a "lock exposure and film base color" perspective.

    Is this a known thing, or am I doing something wrong?

    (Haha I haven't even fired up the Nikon 9000 yet since the 10.6 upgrade. One frustration at a time...)

    Thanks for any help/ideas

  2. #2

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    That's correct.

    The higher ppi scans are only made with film 5x7 or smaller. 8x10 film is outside the sweet spot of the scanner.

    Look at the owner's manual. The V700 and V750 have two different scanning areas.
    When I grow up, I want to be a photographer.

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  3. #3

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Just a practical question, at the point you need a scan larger than 1.2 gigs, why wouldn't you go and get a drum scan? Working on and printing such a large file is a large investment in time (just dust-busting it!) so why not go the extra step and expense to get a truly great scan?

  4. #4

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Walter,

    Thanks for the confirmation. I think I'm pretty lucky as I was just checking at 100% and the scan is quite sharp! So at least it seems to be focusing on the glass (or right above) as it's supposed to.

    Frank,

    Well, this Epson is $500, and the scan was $500/(however many scans I've ever made with it since I bought it + 1). Drum scans are ridiculously expensive I think that if I ever feel that anything I do is even remotely good enough for a drum scan, then I'll definitely get one. I think it's more of a general down feeling when you find the limits of what you have (well, resolution-wise, anyhow). Just making sure I'm not making an easy-to-fix mistake. The biggest I can print is 24x36 (or thereabouts), so maybe it wouldn't even make a difference, I don't know.

    The output still looks pretty awesome, though. The transition from in focus to out of focus is really nice in 8x10.

    Thanks

  5. #5

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Mark, how sharp is sharp? I've been studying the resolution performance of a new V750 and find it drops from about 50 to 25 lp/mm from best focus above the glass to on the glass. I just point this out, but it may be that around 1200 SPI may still be OK for what you're doing. That point of best focus reportedly varies between different machines. For reference, my machine focus point is about 2.4 mm above the glass. Another scanner well tested was 3.9 mm above the glass. But visually, for me, there's quite an improvement in scanning at the focus of the scanner.

    Nate Potter, Austin TX.

  6. #6

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Dear Nathan,

    Unfortunately I cannot speak to the Epson 700, but my best focus for the 750 happens to approximate 3mm above the scanner's flatbed glass surface, where I hang my 8X10 wet mount negatives upside down, emulsion side to the glass, and where I raise the negative into its proper position by using the film guide, and two thin rag board surface strips placed along the longside edges of the film guide. The glass ress comfortably on top of the surface strips, and if I need to square the negative better, it is just a matter of correcting the glass position on top of the strips.

    I go larger that 1200 spi with the current Epson scanner software...

    jim k

  7. #7

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    This is an interesting thread to me. I get very sharp 8x10 scans with a V750 at 2400 dpi. Are you all saying that if I drop back to 1600 I will get better results?

    Edit: So, 1600 is not a default option in Epson scan; you have to type it in. I just did a quick test with MF film. I did one scan at 2400 and another at 1600. I then downsized the 2400 image in PS to the size of the 1600. The 1600 is sharper at 100 percent than the downsized 2400 on screen, but I'm not sure what this means in terms of printing. If I sent the 2400 out for printing at 16x20 would it actually be less sharp than the 1600?

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hodos View Post
    I would like to be able to make a really large scan and then reduce down, which if course I can do now, but I'm a little disappointed, if only because my Nikon 9000 can do just about as good from a 6x7...
    Well, not quite. I get about 8800 by 10,500 pixels from my Nikon with 6x7 film. 12,700 by 15,700 is 45% bigger in the linear dimension, and more than twice as many total pixels in the final file.

    With a 24x36" print (or, actually, 24x30 from an 8x10), you will still have an abundance of pixels (>500 per inch). Not quite enough to achieve 720 pixels/inch in the print, but on my Epson 3800 I can't really tell the difference between 360 and 720 anyway.

    The advantage to 8x10, unless your are printing murals, is that you don't need that much sensor density in the scanner. You'll gain more from insuring proper focus.

    If you ever need to print bigger than your printer can handle, then you'll be having to send it out anyway. Might as well get a drum scan for those few prints.

    My prints at home are limited to 17", but I can still tell the difference between 4x5 scanned at 2400 on the Epson, and 6x7 scanned in my Nikon. Both produce nearly the same number of useful pixels. But the 4x5 is informed by more tonal information. Both have more than enough resolution for 16xwhatever prints, and are not limited by resolution. Even with lower scanning resolution (as long as it is sufficient for a given print size), larger formats will stuff more tonal information into each pixel. I doubt that 1200 spi will limit what you can print on a 24" printer. I'm more likely to see differences in tonal rendering between the two scanners.

    Rick "who has learned to evaluate prints on paper rather than on a computer monitor" Denney

  9. #9

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Quote Originally Posted by rdenney View Post
    Snip, snip, snip.

    Even with lower scanning resolution (as long as it is sufficient for a given print size), larger formats will stuff more tonal information into each pixel. I doubt that 1200 spi will limit what you can print on a 24" printer. I'm more likely to see differences in tonal rendering between the two scanners.

    Rick "who has learned to evaluate prints on paper rather than on a computer monitor" Denney
    What are the visual markers of "more tonal information"?

    Once we get beyond the matter of resolution and sharpness the only difference I can observe between well made prints from MF and LF negatives is the tonal smoothness of the LF print that results from less grain. It seems to me that the absence of grain is one of the main reasons prints from MF digital backs hold up so well to comparisons with 4X5 film, even though the film almost always is capable of more real resolution.

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    Re: 8x10 with a V700, Vuescan can't scan above 1600 DPI

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    What are the visual markers of "more tonal information"?
    Less grain is part of it. I also think that the accuracy of each pixel will be improved by integrating a larger portion of the negative, assuming that's what the Epson is doing. At 16x20, I'm not sure that a 6x7 Velvia transparency shows enough grain for that to be more than a subtle effect. But subtleties do count.

    My 4x5 black and white scans are also smoother than even my 6x7 Velvia scans, even though both end up with the same number of pixels. That smoothness improves the MTF of the print, to my eyes, giving more of the sense of limitless detail. And the 4x5 black and white film has more noticeable grain than the 6x7 transparencies that I've printed to 16x20 even considering the different degrees of enlargement. Clearly, also, the Nikon is better scanner than the Epson, for any given square millimeter of film. The 4x5 still looks smoother. Both make excellent 16x20 prints, of course.

    We had this discussion some time back, where it was demonstrated that given enough resolution, color depth didn't matter. But without that resolution, the accuracy of the scanned tone does matter, it seems to me.

    Rick "barely beyond arm-waving, but seeing differences in the results so far" Denney

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