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Thread: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

  1. #1

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    Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    Hi all,

    A recent development in E6 processing in singapore has ruled developing 4x5 E6 totally out. The one and only shop will potentially no longer develop 4x5 E6.

    I have initially invested on a Chamonix 4x5 and was looking forward to get a Scheiner MACRO-SYMMAR HM 180/5.6 for my macro work.

    Seeing that 4x5 E6 is no longer an option available to me and 4x5 c41 was never available to my knowledge in Singapore, I was thinking of using the reducing back to use 120 films.

    The main purpose of using LF is to play with the various moments.

    Could anyone share with me if this lenses or any other has the sufficient resolutions with used with 120 film? I am looking at doing 1:1 to 2:1 magnifications at times on the 6x6 where possible / required / inspired

    I do have a Hasselblad V system, with a 120mm F4 macro + variable ext tube, however the option of movement is just too hard to resist.

  2. #2
    Lachlan 717
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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    This is going to depend on how large you want to print the final image.
    Lachlan.

    You miss 100% of the shots you never take. -- Wayne Gretzky

  3. #3

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    Hi Lachlan,

    At this moment, I am looking at prints around the size of A3 17 x 11" after some cropping if necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachlan 617 View Post
    This is going to depend on how large you want to print the final image.

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    Quote Originally Posted by neoro View Post
    Could anyone share with me if this lenses or any other has the sufficient resolutions with used with 120 film? I am looking at doing 1:1 to 2:1 magnifications at times on the 6x6 where possible / required / inspired
    The resolution is more than sufficient also with 120 film. But the problem is the camera and RF-back: for 2:1 one needs 540mm bellows draw and the position of the film must be in the range of about +/- 150 micrometer compared with the ground-glass.

  5. #5
    dave_whatever's Avatar
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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    What kind of apertures will you be shooting at? If you're looking a f/22 or thereabouts almost all lenses, LF, MF or otherwise are operating at the same diffraction limited values. So you'll probably get the same sharpness with a 4x5 lens on 120 as you will with a dedicated MF lens on 120.

  6. #6

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave_whatever View Post
    What kind of apertures will you be shooting at? If you're looking a f/22 or thereabouts almost all lenses, LF, MF or otherwise are operating at the same diffraction limited values.
    The by Schneider recommend aperture for 4x5" at 2:1 is f/8.

  7. #7

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    very encouraging response!
    thanks everyone...

    Peter,
    Does this mean that, the process of sliding in my 120 back after focusing with the ground glass would have to be done very carefully in order to have the +/- 150micrometer precision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter K View Post
    The resolution is more than sufficient also with 120 film. But the problem is the camera and RF-back: for 2:1 one needs 540mm bellows draw and the position of the film must be in the range of about +/- 150 micrometer compared with the ground-glass.

  8. #8

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    No, it means that your roll holder will have to hold the film very flat.

    Peter, I found my handy DoF (and other things) calculator. According to it at 1:1 with the nominal aperture set to f/8 (effective = f/16), CoC 0.025 mm, and pupillary magnification = 1.0, depth of field (= depth of focus too, but only at 1:1) is 0.8 mm. Depth of field at 1:2 (= depth of focus at 2:1) is 2.4 mm. Film flatness shouldn't be an issue. How did you find the 150 microns you reported?

    Original poster, as you should know since you use a Hasselblad, when working closeup the usual way of putting the plane of best focus where wanted is to adjust camera (or subject) position. We use movements in situations where this isn't possible, e.g., at low magnification. The big gain for you in going from a 120 mm lens to a 180 will be in working distance.

  9. #9

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    Quote Originally Posted by neoro View Post
    Does this mean that, the process of sliding in my 120 back after focusing with the ground glass would have to be done very carefully in order to have the +/- 150micrometer precision?
    In any case inserting the filmholder should be done very carefully because if the camera moves the image arerea and the focus moves too. This can be solved with rigid mounting the camera. But if the groundglass has not exactly the same position as later the film you can also use a glass-bottom as taking lens, specialy in this range of image scale.

    Peter

  10. #10

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    Re: Does a Schneider 180mm Macro have enough resolution if used with 120 films?

    Only printing 11x17 you should have more than adequate sharpness. But this will also be true even if you use 135 format film.

    As a rule of thumb the extremes of focal length and angles of view work better on smaller formats. Macro is one of these. 2:1 or or 2x or twice-life-size on film is the same image size regardless of format.Too, in the field, 2:1 on film gets to be ridiculously difficult on LF or even MF for the extensions involved. Yet for the same subject size, larger formats don't buy you greater sharpness-- there's typically a large resolution hit for the larger image circle.

    Purposed 35mm macro lenses are probably the sharpest lenses that can be found, with most modern ones being capable of putting down >100 lp/mm on film. The Macro Planars for 'Blads are probably close to these numbers in MF. Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I'll be very surprised if anyone can point to tests that indicate the Macro Sironars etc come close to them.

    What may also be the case is that 120 is more capable of being scanned and retaining such high resolutions because the base of the film is thinner and also has a less diffuse surface than sheet films (short of wet mounting for drum-scanning). 220 is even thinner and may resolve slightly better.)

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