Wet Mount Scanning Fluid

[Richard Martel]

You missed, or maybe not, the point regarding the debacle with Perrier a number of years ago. And from experience, getting things through the FDA approval process is more how facts and paper work is juggled than with actual performance in many cases.. They, FDA, don't have a steller reputation regarding "approved" products that we use daily
Alot of what you say, regarding water, not all water though, is true. Ironically, It was your reply to a thread, regarding the use of Naptha, with no caveat, that stuck with me. Most of what we get here on this great forum is the anecdotal experience and opinions of others. I have learned a tremendous amount here. To me, others and I'm sure you, value this input. And you voiced yours. I would assume that commercial mounting fluids are designed to work for their intended purpose, but to say "use them" and nothing else would be to stifle innovation. As it stands I did not see any overwhelming reason stated, flammability well noted, not to use Naptha/Ronsonol.

Bruce, since you have such strong feeling regarding the downside of home formulated Naptha/mounting, you must have equally strong experience wet mounting. In this case, please let me ask you, for myself and others,what do you use to fluid mount? Do you have any first hand experience with Lumina (or other) mounting fluids ? Would you care to share your experience re fluid mounting/cleanup here?

Here is a link that may be of interest.

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1873

Thank you.

Regards, Richard

[IanMazursky]

I don't think Bruce missed the point at all. We speak from experience.
Ive been drum scanning for over 10 years and i have friends that started over 25+ years ago on the Hell scanners that took up a whole room.

I use Kami exclusively now but in the past i have used all of the Prazio products, SDS, Mineral oil and almost tried lighter fluid.
Mineral oil was used forever and is still used by some. It works really well except on certain emulsions (E100G for one) where is starts to absorb.
After i found that out the hard way 8 years ago i never used it again. Prazio products are great but theyre mostly gone from the market.
I did love the montage gels but they took forever to clean up. I still have a bunch left but i only use them seriously damaged film.
SDS falls into the same category. I have some left over and occasionally use them when needed.

Lighter fluid scares me. I have a few friends that seared all of the hairs off their arms and ended up with some good burns.
What bothers me about the products that are not designed for drum scanning is the longterm effect on film.
It hasn't been throughly studied and probably wont be. The MSDS only states percentages and usually doesn't always include chemicals that are under 1%.
ie: fragrances, small amounts of buffers....You just don't know whats in them or what the tolerances are in the manufacturing of them.
Water is one problem. Film will stick to a drum or mylar if enough water is present. I had a friend ask me how to get some film off a flatbed that he water mounted.
Of course i said you mean fluid mounted, he said no, water mounted. Well to say the film was ruined is an understatement.

Certain products will work great on glass (flatbeds and glass drums) but will totally destroy acrylic drums.
Ive seen it and its not pretty. Remember film is immersed in the fluid for minutes to many hours.
Issues with the fluid might not be apparent immediately after scanning but can show up after a period of storage.
The same goes for the drum or glass. The effect can be cumulative.

It all boils down to risk. If you are willing to take the risk, go for it but test, test, test....
If not, buy a commercial product like Kami, Lumina, Prazio if you can find it.

[Richard Martel]

Ian,

Thank you for your informative reply. I never doubted Bruces ability. He has, as you, some lovely images and knows his way, according to his website, about scanning, but a more in depth explanation would have been more of a help. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that Kami fluid being 90% Naptha is that much less prone to ignition. What is it that I'm not seeing? Does the addition of the mineral oil change the flash point of Kami fluid that much?
Your concern regarding, drum damage, added chemicals and impurities are a concern especially when your dealing with customer and your valuable negatives.
Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel I'll try the Kami fluid. Are you also using the kami cleaning fluid.

Thank you again Ian.

Regards, Richard

[Peter De Smidt]

Just in looking that MSDSs posted earlier, the flash point of Kami is 16F whereas Rosonol is 42F. That said, whereas Kami does not list any carcinogens, Rosonol does. In addition, as Bruce points out, we don't know what other impurities Rosonol has, and what effect these might have on film, drum cylinders or us.

I have enough Kami and Prazio fluid to last a long time. If I were buying new supplies, I'd certainly consider lumina, as it's supposed to be less toxic and less flammable.

[Paul Kierstead]

In my recent experience, I have noticed that Kami leaves a slight residue (a slight smear) on glass if allowed to dry. Haven't figured out the best method of removal yet; using optical wipes works well, straight alcohol doesn't.

[Peter De Smidt]

Yes it does. I wipe the scanner glass immediately after scanning with a scanner wipe and Windex.

[Keith S. Walklet]

Having used both KAMI and LUMINA, I can say I prefer the LUMINA which doesn't exhibit the strong aromatic qualities of the KAMI.

[Richard Martel]

Thank you for all the informative replies. I'm off tomorrow for a trip west to, hopefully, do a lot of photography.
Thanky.

Regards, Richard

[tbirke]

Kami is 100% Naphta, and the warning label on the bottle warns you of combustion as well, caused by static. Especially when cleaning the INSIDE of the drum.
Never happened to me though...

[IanMazursky]

Hi Richard,
Kami will ignite if you prompt it same as most solvents. In my experience it seems less sensitive to static discharge.
Im not tempting it though. I have adequate ventilation and an anti static generator (recent purchase).
I have no idea about the actual chemistry as to what makes it less sensitive but i would trust it over lighter fluid.
I wouldn't advocate this but a few years ago i did try to light the vapors with static and i couldn't.
Like gasoline, the vapors need a specific mix of oxygen and vapor to ignite.
An open flame will do the trick fast and its very hard to extinguish. So no experimenting indoors.

I have used the Kami drum and film cleaner in the past. They are a close relation to the mounting fluid.
They are colored so you don't accidentally mount with film cleaner. That would damage an acrylic drum.

Keith, I know a few people who hate the Kami smell also. I love it but i practically bathe in it so im not a good judge.
I say use what works for you and since Lumina is a commercial product and tested. Its not a real risk in my book.

Thomas, kami is <90% naphtha, <10% mineral spirits and <4% of n-Hexane according to the msds.

Speaking of the inside of a drum, i wrote a life in times of a drum scanner operator post on this forum a while back.
Years ago a good friend of mine was working at a plant, one of his co workers was cleaning the inside of a large Hell drum.
Im not sure if it was Ronsonol or a film cleaner but it wasn't kami. Anyway he was wearing a fuzzy sweater.
He was warned not to do it but did it anyway. He turned the drum into a great flame thrower.
Burned his arm pretty good and added a valuable lesson to the employee handbook. I think the drum survived.

I never let my clothes touch the drum when im cleaning the inside. I always have myself grounded in some way just in case.
Ventilation is very important when using any type of solvents indoors. Before i added a fan, a few hours of mounting was all i could take before feeling sick.

I just re read the Kami msds and i cant figure out how the flashpoint could be 16F.
Its much warmer then that in my office. Shouldn't it go up at room temperature?