Fake Schneider lens?

[duff photographer]

Never ever underestimate the ability of the Chinese to make knock-offs....

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it. The shutter, according to the seller, is a genuine copal. Did the factory buy in old lenses very cheaply, spruce them up, re-tag them, and then back onto the market? I can't help being a little impressed by their ingenuity, and in this case, if someone bought such a lens, with its 'Kresfnuch', thinking it's genuine then that someone deserved to be taken

Throughout history, someone somewhere has been producing knock-offs or fakes, even on the rare occasion producing something that is actually better than the original. Also, and not wishing to slip off-topic too much, wasn't there a controversy over a Chinese source producing 'fake' handbags which later turned out to be the same factory that was churning out the same handbags for the likes of Gucci and what-have-you?!

[Bob Salomon]

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it. The shutter, according to the seller, is a genuine copal. Did the factory buy in old lenses very cheaply, spruce them up, re-tag them, and then back onto the market? I can't help being a little impressed by their ingenuity, and in this case, if someone bought such a lens, with its 'Kresfnuch', thinking it's genuine then that someone deserved to be taken

Throughout history, someone somewhere has been producing knock-offs or fakes, even on the rare occasion producing something that is actually better than the original. Also, and not wishing to slip off-topic too much, wasn't there are controversy over a Chinese source producing 'fake' handbags which later turned out to be the same factory that was churning out the same handbags for the likes of Gucci and what-have-you?!

Look at the Exacta 66 SLR. Heinrich Mandermann bought Praktisix bodies from East Germany, imported them into West Germany, recovered them and relabeled them Exacta.

He was also the man that bought Schneider out of bankruptcy and later added Rollei and B+W.

[Greg]

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it. The shutter, according to the seller, is a genuine copal. Did the factory buy in old lenses very cheaply, spruce them up, re-tag them, and then back onto the market? I can't help being a little impressed by their ingenuity, and in this case, if someone bought such a lens, with its 'Kresfnuch', thinking it's genuine then that someone deserved to be taken

Throughout history, someone somewhere has been producing knock-offs or fakes, even on the rare occasion producing something that is actually better than the original. Also, and not wishing to slip off-topic too much, wasn't there are controversy over a Chinese source producing 'fake' handbags which later turned out to be the same factory that was churning out the same handbags for the likes of Gucci and what-have-you?!

Was related to me by a photographer in China that there are indeed 2 factories over there buying up lenses in Copal No 3 shutters and one has already marketed rip-offs of LF lenses. I think he was referring to the Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 (Chinese Fujinon C 600mm). Not sure of the other factory or what they are or will be selling.

Were there any updates posted on the Kang Rinpoche S 600 F11.5 lens? Would love a 600mm Fujinon C but their going for prices just too hard to justify. Currently use a barrel 600mm f/9 Apo Ronar which when I use it with a Sinar shutter, well the combo is not exactly portable.

Recently borrowed and used a Chinese rip-off of a large Ries head. I was very impressed by its quality but just not sure how well it will hold up. Cosmetically it did look great.

[Oren Grad]

In all seriousness, I'd like to know how they produced it.

Agree. I imagine there's an interesting story behind it.

[Bernice Loui]

Fake Brand Name lenses.. Will they gain a following due to their image personality?

This becomes a question of perception of what is desirable in the print-image.

What makes a "quality" desirable lens ?

It is the emotional reaction to the perception of a Lie or Fake or untruth that tars the perception of a fake brand name lens into being Un-Desirable - Inferior, but is it really not a good thing or just an emotional reaction?


Bernice

[Arne Croell]

I have a tough time wrapping my head around this one. It is obviously fake, but an Apo-Symmar 180mm is not exactly rare on the used market, why would one want to fake that? Faking a, lets say, late production Zeiss T* Planar 135mm f/3.5 for Linhof would make more sense, or a Fujinon-A 600mm. And somebody apparently looked up the approximate right serial number range for the Apo-Symmar time frame, but then they make those stupid "Krefnuch" and "by Germany" mistakes? Beats me.
€147 for a working Copal shutter and a lens board is not a bad price, btw.

[Drew Wiley]

I see cheap printing on that thing that reminds me exactly of a mere simple generic step ring that proved worthless, and even the black anodizing was fake and rubbed off; the threads didn't fit. In a different kind of industry I had to compete with truckloads, even warehouses full of knockoff items, some of them faked right down to the patent numbers. For one thing, it's illegal and deceptive to do that; importers of such things can and do go to prison if it's egregious enough. For another, you've got about a 99% chance it will be inferior, probably extremely inferior. If some web advertiser clearly states that something is an aftermarket replacement for something else, and not original, that's a different story, at least if the patent for the original has run out. It doesn't have to make sense. Lots of counterfeiting never makes sense, just like most bank robbers are downright stupid. But it still happens. Tripods. I sold US Mfg CST survey tripods. Not Ries quality, but solid and dependable except for ferrous hardware needing period replacement. The Chinese knockoffs looked identical, but the legs slipped, hardware broke almost instantly, and we got called greedy for charging three times as much. At one time we were distributing pre-import Baldwin and Schlage commercial door hardware meant to last decades of hard use. A guy in San Diego started distributing massive quantities of knockoffs that really looked darn good. What would you do - spend $700 per door for hardware from me or half that amount? Well, all those knockoff locks broke within a few months. Word got around, and hopefully the importer learned his lesson too while he was sitting in prison for six years or so. I could write a book on this stuff. And yes, I think it is ethically important not to feed those kinds of parasites, wherever they might be located, because you're just stealing from someone else's legitimate hard work by doing so. The Chinese already have giant optical factories if somebody legit wants to contract with them for their own line of lenses; but the kind of thing we're discussing at the moment is just some kind of slippery small-shop redo of whatever. If I want a shutter cheaply, there are hundreds of used view lenses to choose from already without needing to feed deceptive practices.

[duff photographer]

Just a thought (and I'm going back a little on what I said in my first post #34)...

'Kresfnuch' - Looks like Kreuznach but it isn't.
'Made by Germany' - Not 'in' Germany. A subtle but significant difference.

Technically, this doesn't make it a fake. Misleading maybe. The makers may be ignorant of Latin characters as many westerners are of Arabic characters, for example, but those who are ignorant tend to get the letters mis-shaped. In this case the letters are perfect and it leads me to suspect they knew what they were doing.

While I don't think this is the case here, it is not uncommon for new companies, or possibly in this case entities, to name themselves similarly to well established and reputable companies.

Is it an attempt to avoid copyright? Not knowing the country of origin for the lens (we can assume but not really know) the makers may be open to prosecution on that front. I know that manufacturers of plastic model kits have to change the lettering of extant commercial companies on their kit parts, e.g., 'Continental' on the tyres changed to 'Dontinental'.

'Made by Germany'. Okay, this is reaching somewhat but if they have someone in the factory named 'Germany' then...

Anyway, fun to speculate during the quieter moments of an evening.

Cheers,
Duff.


UPDATE:

Okay, curiosity got the better of me (it's a really quiet evening) so did some internet searching...

It appears that Kresfnuch might be a legitimate 'brand' similar to the Korean Symmar-Krishna mentioned 10 years ago in this same thread and it looks like Arne's speculation (post #14) of 10 years ago may be close to the truth.

References are made on the Galerie-photo.org website http://www.galerie-photo.org/n3-f2,183610.html (where the user is happy with what he thought was a genuine Schneider) and one or two Korean websites.

Seems to have been available in at least 150mm and 180mm.

So maybe not a 'fake' after all!

Cheers,
Duff

[Louis Pacilla]

I thought these fake Schneider lenses came from some operation in South Korea and started showing up sometime in the mid 80's. They obviously didn't flood the market with them but I have seen at least a half dozen over the years. I remember checking one over (a 210 fake Schneider) at Mid-West Photo back in the days when Jim was always around and he gave me a little info on the subject but I can't recall the details except the South Korea origin. I do remember he said his contact/partner in Japan said that many of the faked Schneider lenses made it to Japan. I take the "many" with a grain of salt.

[Drew Wiley]

Of course it's fake if even the lettering is fake. At the very least, it was being deceptively marketed at the time. If they just wanted to clean up and resell the real thing, why not do it the same way we all do, and just like any legitimate dealer does, and just state up front that it's used item and indicate the condition. That Kang Rinpoche 600 example doesn't claim to be a Fuji C 600, but to fill a similar niche, and it's clearly labeled as a different product. Whole different story. And it doesn't matter if Krefsnuch is a Korean brand designation or not. Simply by uniting this to implied German manufacture is indicative of the intention to be deceptive. When view camera use was much more routine than now, you could buy less expensive lenses like those from Bromwell that were honestly marketed. And there are just so darn many real brand-name plasmat lenses out there at the moment at bargain prices that I don't see why anyone would even be tempted with a hokey knockoff unless they just wanted a conversation piece.