TMY, XTOL, and a Scanner...

[Bruce Watson]

That said, I don't know what most Zonies think nor why they would collectively think that a 0.15 value was too high...

Found it! Took some looking, and I couldn't find it online. Adam's book The Negative, eighth printing (1986), page 88: "The key point is at the threshold; we consider a density of 0.10 above filmbase-plus-fog density as the useful threshold. The exposure that yields this first significant net density of 0.10 is established as the Zone I exposure point.
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This procedure is applied as practical exposure information in the test that determines the film speed rating that gives 0.10 net density for Zone I exposure. If, for example, using the manufacturer's recommended ASA number, we find that a Zone I exposure produces a density higher than 0.1, we can reduce this exposure by assigning a higher ASA film speed number. If the Zone I density is consistently below 0.1 we use a lower ASA number to increase the exposure until the optimum value is achieved."

The italics in the quote above are not mine -- they are in the book. That passage is what I was remembering when I made the prior post about 0.10 above fb+f. Nice to confirm my memory isn't completely shot.

And I find that development time does indeed effect EI, just not much. When I test for EI and N development time, I have to do it iteratively. That is, I find my EI, then check for my Zone VIII density. It's usually too high, so I decrease development until I get Zone VIII where I want it. Then I retest for EI at this lesser time. I often see a decrease of around 1/3 stop in EI, so I lower the EI by that 1/3 and retest for N development time. Usually two iterations are good enough to get me very close, which is all I need.

That is part of what makes TMY-2 in XTOL 1:3 so interesting to me -- even with my decreased development time (to give me a Zone VIII of around 1.0) I still get a real film speed of around 400-500. I wasn't expecting this. I'm told that this is partly the result of continuous agitation via the Jobo. But I've never tested with other agitation methods so I can't say one way or the other.

This is just my experience. I'm not saying anyone should change anything. If something works for someone, they should by all means use it. We all do things differently, and that's a good thing. All I'm doing here is trying to add a little more data to the discussion. Because if I've learned anything in photography, it's that YMMV.

[jim kitchen]

Dear Bruce,

Well there you go. I am glad you found a source...

I must have thought about Picker or White when I mentioned 0.15 as a target for Zone 3. Thank you for your updated information too. As promised, I will update my revolutions per minute within a day or two, since I am currently away from my film processing equipment.

As a side note, does anyone know whether TMY-2 has special identifiers on the box, a production date, a batch number and, or an emulsion number, compared to TMY?

Just curious...

jim k

[Ed Richards]

There is a little red flag on the label of the box saying it is the sharpest, and the film has a different notch code.

[jim kitchen]

Dear Ed,

Merci...

jim k

[Marko]

What a wonderful thread!

Thank you all, but special thanks to Jim for starting it and sharing his knowledge and hard work.

[jim kitchen]

Folks,

Attached are two PDF files that I made to assist anyone that may not be familiar with our discussion and, or familiar with the Zone System's formulation...

That said, please review these diagrams, and if you have a moment please offer any refinement suggestions at your leisure. The example sheet demonstrates several values that are arbitrary, and they are meant to be a guide only. I realize that several methods exist that determine an effective film speed, but I chose a typical method to briefly illustrate the example calculations, regarding the film's effective speed calculation and normal development.

There are two 11X17 PDF sheets, where one PDF is a work sheet, and the other PDF happens to be a partially filled work sheet example.

These PDF's do not illustrate the effective film speed method step by step, but the sheets are meant to be used with a known method, and these sheets should allow you to plot your captured data.

If someone shares the same mind set, I would like to work with a knowledgeable person or group of persons within this group, to develop an effective illustrative method for novice Zone System enthusiasts, and although there are many fine examples within the internet, I am not certain that a demonstrative example exists at this site. Anyway, I thought we could expand the film development method to include a development procedure for scanning too, compared to just grade number two paper.

Contact me directly if you desire to do so.

Maybe a separate thread may be more suitable for this idea too.

Merci,

jim k

[Mike1234]

Jim,

Thanks for the graphs. First one won't open properly for me though.

[jim kitchen]

Dear Mike,

They are PDF's, so your browser won't save the file as a PDF, or you cannot open the PDF?

Just curious...

jim k

[jim kitchen]

An update for this posting, since I took a few moments to add incremental information to the original data, such as my total cycles per minute...

It should be noted again, that these times are for TMY and not TMY-2. I will update my notes once I receive my supply of TMY-2.

I revised the original PDF, which is attached, and I added a second PDF clarifying the rotations my motor base implements, compared to any other motor base. I noticed in our discussion that a few users rated their drums at thirty (30) cycles per minute, but I do not know whether their statement represents the total for fifteen (15) clockwise movements plus fifteen (15) counterclockwise movements, during a one minute count, or thirty (30) clockwise movements and thirty (30) counterclockwise movements, during a one minute count.

As a side note, my notes and my diagram indicate one clockwise movement, and one counterclockwise movement equals one cycle, where my cycles per minute total eight (8).

If I followed the logic stated above, then my eight (8) clockwise movements and eight (8) counterclockwise movements would total to sixteen (16) cycles per minute, equalling one half of the earlier stated thirty (30) cycles.

If someone could take a moment to clarify that previous comment about the thirty (30) cycles I would be grateful to you, since I do not have a rotational device capable of the speed...

If you have a moment, please review at your leisure...

Thank you in advance,

jim k

[sanking]

It should be noted again, that these times are for TMY and not TMY-2. I will update my notes once I receive my supply of TMY-2.

jim k

I will be interested in what you find. When TMY-2 first came out I carefully compared it with BTZS type testing to the old TMY with several different developers, including D76 1:1, Xtol 1:2 and Pyrocat-HD. I found very little difference in processing time between the old and new version of the film. When the two films were developed for the same time in these developers both CI and curve shape were vritually identical for both the new and old film.

Sandy King