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Thread: New to film and LF

  1. #1

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    New to film and LF

    Hi everyone. I'm Rich, from Wellington, NZ.

    Have been shooting digital since the humble Kodak DC20, obtained 12 years ago. I have now a bookcase of digital cameras, but I have stopped the race short of moving to a MFDB. Like many others here, the novelty of looking at jpgs on computer monitors has well and truely worn off.

    I have been experimenting with prints, and different print processes. I have developed a fondness for high quality large prints, both B&W and colour. I have been stitching and doing HDRs in an attempt to improve the quality of my large prints, and have had some success. I have tested just about all the commercial large format printers in the area. However I am far from satisfied.

    I recently picked up Tom Mackie's Landscape Photography Secrets, fully expecting it to reveal the latest high end digital landscape techniques only to find out that all 150 of the wonderful photos discussed in the book were shot on film, a mix of MF and LF. This inspired me to find out more about the use of film for landscape and other forms of photography. I was surprised to find out there is a still fringe community of die-hard film users. I spoke at length with a LF wet plate photographer as well as a few other film photographers. I found this forum.

    I am very interested view cameras now. Tilt and shift. Time exposures and massive depth of field. But I find the prospect of entering this arena quite daunting.

    I made enquiries about high rez scans of MF film. Ouch!! $90/frame. While I could see doing 4x5 and 5x7 contact printing of B&W's, I'm after larger prints, 11x14's being the smallest, 16x20's and maybe larger. For me this seems to rule out contact printing, other than for maybe proofing. I appreciate that I don't need infinite resolution for large prints. All my prints are expected to be viewed at a distance of at least the diagonal dimension of the print, not with a loupe. An 11x14@300dpi is merely 14Mpx, but having some reserve for cropping and larger prints would be useful.

    So here's where I am at. I think that 4x5 will have all the resolution I will need in the near to medium term. I can see getting a 4x5 view camera with T/S and a couple of really good lenses. T/S is a must have. Now what? I know I can process 4x5 sheet B&W film myself. I don't know if I can process small quanities of 4x5 colour film. Years ago I used to work in a film lab and know the E6/C41 processes. I'd rather use a lab for colour film, even if I have to send them away.

    For large prints I can use either continuous silver/wet or digital ink/dye processes. I haven't managed to find a lab which does large silver prints locally, and there maybe none in the country. So for silver I expect I would have to do it myself with enlarger and some kind of developing tank or large trays. Not sure how to dry them yet. Definitely easier for B&W's. Can probably find the second-hand gear.

    For large digital ink/dye prints I would have to use a print service, probably a little easier for colour. I have been there, familar with the print process. But I am not familiar with getting to digital from a 4x5. Reading through the forums here, many suggest using a good flat bed scanner (with calibration targets etc). But again I have not yet found an affordable service to do the scanning; it sounds like something I'd have to do myself.

    Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses. I definitely like silver prints though. The idea of large contact prints sounds even better, but ...

    This is/will be a hobby for me. Budget severely capped. Maybe I'd be happy with doing one good large print a month, at maybe NZ$100 a pop. Some used equipment is available here, prices typically double what you'd find in the US (except wages are pretty much same $ for $). I can't really borrow equipment or bludge facilities.

    So this is where I am at, trying to work out the most practical way forward, without splashing out large on equipment. How should I get into this game? I'd love to hear how members have achieved large fomat printing on a shoestring budget. Almost every member must have been here at some stage

    Thanks at least for listening.

    All the best, Rich

  2. #2
    Claudio Santambrogio
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    Re: New to film and LF

    Welcome Rich! You can contact print 11x14 and larger But that's maybe not where you start off...

    Get yourself a cheap 4x5 and start playing with it - you'll soon discover what you really like, or dislike about it. Keep in mind that very few will keep shooting with their first LF camera. And then you move up from there. There is a very active "For Sale/Wanted" section here that you can see after 30 days of being a member - and you can find lots of really excellent deals there.

    Good luck, and welcome!

    claudio.

  3. #3

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    Smile Re: New to film and LF

    Welcome to the forum!

    There used to be a fellow on this forum who I believe was from Wellington, NZ. Haven't seen him around recently however.

  4. #4

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    Re: New to film and LF

    You seem to be concerned or at least thinking about so many different things at once that it's hard to know where to start. I'd suggest not worrying about large prints or color at first since it's best to take it a step at a time IMHO plus you say you're on a budget. Buy the camera and related equipment (tripod, light meter, dark cloth, film holders, etc.). Buy some b&w film. Learn how to use the camera. Learn how to process b&w film and how to make contact prints (neither are terribly difficult at the initial stages, i.e. while you're more concerned with learning than with the ultimate in quality). See how you like the whole process. If you like it then you can move on to learning how to process color film, how to use the zone system or something similar, how to scan, etc. Come back here in a couple years and let us know how it went. : - )
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  5. #5

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    Re: New to film and LF

    Rich, I'll make a few comments.

    First Film, with the large format camera and 4x5 sheet film, there is so much surplus detail in the transparency (assuming you use a competent lens) that 40" x 50" are possible at your standard of viewing.

    Secondly, you mention Tilt/Shift more than once. This is the very essence of using a view camera. But unlike digital where you primarily can adjust the lens "only" and therefore focus, with a view camera you can also adjust the film plane to change perspective (and focus). The view camera is much more adjustable than any hand held camera.

    If you acquire a decent consumer scanner (say a Epson 4990) you will be able to scan 4x5 at 1800 dpi competently which will output 7200x9000 pixel files (adjusted by cropping , of course).

    At 300 dpi this is 24x30 inches. More than meets your standard. Print at 240 dpi, whew even bigger. Save the portfolio perfect shots for a great drum scan and print HUGE. No reason to drum scan ($$$) every shot. Maybe a couple per year.

    Digital can't compare as film in this case is using BRUTE FORCE in the form of a very large transparency to overcome digital's per pixel advantage.

    Can you blow up 35mm film to 40x50. Of course not, but many are asking those same lenses to do so in digital with the latest cameras. The lenses just won't get you there no matter how good they are.

    bob

  6. #6
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    Re: New to film and LF

    I am on a similar path, with my only advantage being that I've been here before. I had allowed my large-format work to lapse when I moved and lost my darkroom about 15 years ago. I also found that I see better in color than in black and white. Thus, I moved into medium format, including some extensive investment in lenses with movements.

    Then, I wandered into a gallery in southern Virginia, owned by a photographer, and was drawn to a 20"x40" print. The quality of detail and tonality in that print was beyond anything I have been able to achieve with smaller formats, and I realized I was just kidding myself and spending a fortune in search of the unattainable. Same as you, I determined to move back into large-format work, or at least medium-format film on a large-format camera.

    I have used a Nikon 8000ED film scanner for medium and small format film scanning. It's a true film scanner with high resolution and good performance when used with a glass carrier. But it only scans up to 6x9, though that's big enough for part of what I want to do. For 6x12 and larger, I have just obtained an Epson V-750. My reason for selecting that scanner is two-fold: 1.) the print I saw (and bought) in that gallery was scanned from 6x12 using an Epson 4990, and the quality certainly met my standard, and 2.) I've read credible tests that concluded that scanner was capable of true 2000-2400 pixels/inch. At that resolution, I can easily make 17"-wide prints of scanned 6x12 film at the capability of the printer and of my eyes when viewing the print. 4x5 would provide a surplus of quality, which is no bad thing. I bought the Epson scanner as a refurbed unit with an extra year's warranty from the Epson Store, and saved nearly a couple of hundred bucks.

    Since my target format was rollfilm, I experimented with my Cambo 4x5 camera to determine if it would work. I had attempted this once before with an MPP 6x9 follfilm back and an older 47/5.6 Super Angulon. But I found that the Cambo just didn't want to work with lenses that short. Too many compromises were required, and I gave it up for a time. This time, I decided to bite the bullet and get a camera that would not require such compromises. I've invested in a Sinar F outfit, which is actually quite an inexpensive route considering the quality and availability of the components. It works quite well with the short lenses, and it's less bulky and more transportable than the Cambo.

    My point is that you don't have to use your 4x5 camera only for sheet film. It's quite reasonable to use it as a medium-format view camera, and it might even be easier to do that with a 4x5 camera than with a medium-format camera. I now have a Graflex 6x7 back, a Wista 6x9 back (nicer than the MPP), and a Shen-Hao 6x12 back.

    I do have a Polaroid 545 holder, though, so I'm fully expecting to experiment with Fuji Quickloads.

    I'm experimenting with mailorder film processing, having bought a small stock of mailers for A&I Labs in California, and I just sent a first batch to them today. I'm sure there's a lab in New Zealand that would offer such services. I know I've had work done in Christchurch when I was there last (in 2000), but time has passed since then.

    I was sorely tempted by the 17" printers when I last visited B&H Photo in New York. But before pulling that trigger I reviewed the cost of ink. That printer required nine cartridges of ink that cost over $50 each. Spending nearly $500 for a load of ink does get one's attention! The 13" printer that uses the same technology used cartridges that cost a little over $100 for a full set. I print rarely enough so that I waste a lot ink cleaning the printhead when I do use it, so I'm figuring that the cost of sending the file out to be printed will be less overall than trying to maintain a large printer. But I think I'll be able to meet most of my printing needs with the smaller printer, and I should at least be able to provide a lab with a test print. And the local labs here who have given up film developing still have good printing capabilities to support digital photographers.

    Good luck on your journey and keep us informed so we can compare notes.

    Rick "who never really enjoyed hours in the darkroom" Denney

  7. #7

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    Re: New to film and LF

    Welcome to group therepy! You've discovered, by this point in the thread, that this is a helpful group with a wide field of opinions. I fall on the "...buy an inexpensive 4x5 and a good lens, tripod, and a light meter and go take some pictures..." side of the discussion. A good Crown Graphic press camera with movements on just the front would get you started, but an inexpensive wooden Burke and James or some such would give you full movements for no more money. Also, rail cameras like the B&J Orbit, the Calumet 400 series (same camera as the Orbit), a Graphic View II, or a Cambo/Calumet 45N, etc., would be less portable but doable at about the same price on eBay or the used camera dealers.

  8. #8

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    Re: New to film and LF

    Thanks. I appreciate the reminders that the journey can be as enjoyable as getting there. A nice LF camera and good lense can be a thing of beauty, but I don't own one yet. I still see the camera as a means to an end, the end for me is the large quality prints. So you can see how my thinking has started at the end goal and is working its way back to the capture.

    I'm thinking out loud here, assimilating the responses so far. I can see possibly splitting the journey into two paths, B&W and colour. Here is maybe a third approach.

    Conceptually for me, by far the simplest notion is a large LF camera (ie., 11x14") and contact printing B&Ws. Only one lens involved, no other sources of distortion or degradation other than the film, paper and chemicals. Very pure, has a quality all its own. Maybe the film, paper and chemicals will be less than $100/pop. But I could not afford to bracket on 11x14" film. It's pretty much going to have to be a single exposure, maybe two.

    Yep, sure I will experiment/learn the process on a 4x5, maybe even use a Fuji Quickload back for proofing. More than ever now I appreciate the intrigue and challenge of large wet plates. However in my case this is not an option as I want to climb mountains, delve into the forests.

    While I don't need all the information in giant negatives, I could also scan it and get enough off a 11x14" even at 600DPI, it just needs to handle the density, if I find I'm really missing photoshop and LCDs. Yeah right.

    I think I know the zone system and how to use spotmeters. I understand density and response curves, and I did work in a motion film lab for some years. But it will take years to master the whole LF process - the journey.

    I appreciate the member's comments about the journey they've taken, the loops and deadends, but more than that, their wonderful successes.

  9. #9
    jp's Avatar
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    Re: New to film and LF

    With black and white film, you really don't need to bracket if you have a light meter and can use it. B&W film has so much more latitude and range than what most people are able to get with digital. If you overexpose accidentally by a stop, you're usually fine, and with digital, you're usually toast.

  10. #10
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    Re: New to film and LF

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    An epson can give high end quality at about 3-4x magnification....so about a 11x14 print from 4x5 (although 16x20 still looks good).
    This really depends on your standard, and the description "all that the film has to offer" is really beyond ANY scanner.

    Everything I've read and my own experience suggests that the better Epson flatbeds are good for about 2000 spi (despite what they claim). Printed at 240 on an Epson printer, one will get about an 8x enlargement. I've seen 6x12 scans on a 4990 that made excellent (by my standards, whatever that is) 20x40" nominal prints.

    It's true that the latest Epson printers will see more quality beyond 240 pixels/inch, and 360 probably wrings nearly all there is to be gotten from the printer. Even that is a 5.6x enlargement from 120 rollfilm scanned effectively at 2000 spi.

    I have a Nikon 8000 scanner, and at 4000 spi nominal, that scanner really tests both film and optics. 2000 spi is a lot easier on the glass selections.

    I suspect that for most folks new to large format, a 4x5 camera with a rollfilm back, an Nikon 8000/9000ED, an Epson 4990 or V750, and a 13" printer provides a balanced kit that will allow high-quality work. Once they've exhaust the potential of that kit, I suspect they won't need advice on the Internet.

    Rick "who hates stitching" Denney

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