Can a Jobo Make up for the Initial Cost of the Machine in the Long Run???

[Marko]

RDKirk,

Yes, you are right for hybrid processing, of course. I was simply comparing the costs of all traditional vs. all digital workflow. Once a meaningful comparison is established, it should be relatively easy to adjust for a hybrid one, with scanner being the only missing link.

[audioexcels]

RDKirk,

Yes, you are right for hybrid processing, of course. I was simply comparing the costs of all traditional vs. all digital workflow. Once a meaningful comparison is established, it should be relatively easy to adjust for a hybrid one, with scanner being the only missing link.

I should have been a bit clearer. I would never go all traditional with 120-4X5 film. I would scan and photoshop everything at these sizes and do contact and/or scanning of larger sized film. Then inkjet the prints...

Thanks again for everyone's opinions.

[Steve Kefford]

Labs are closing left and right at the moment. Getting a Jobo is no longer an option but more of a necessity if you want to stay in the film game.

Whilst that might be the case, taking a simplistic overall view achieves nothing, other than panic. I don't know about the US, but my take of it in the UK is that those labs doing mainly high street colour prints are doing less of this type of work - to be expected as this is where digital is having the greatest inroads into analog. However, when looking at E6 and B&W, especially at the "top" end of the market, this is not so much the case.

If film is made and bought, which it will do for a long long time to come, then labs will be available. Perhaps not as many, and in the same locations, but they will still be there.

Steve

[Joseph O'Neil]

Let's also forget the fact that a DSLR bought 5 years ago is still perfectly usable, provided it was not abused, of course, just like any other camera. Say a Canon 10D, a 6MP camera which was in this exact price range.

-snip-
That is exactly how it *should* work, and I wish it would work, but in the "real world" of "we only make money of new sales, not repairs" - well, have you ever tried to get anything digital - camera or computer - this is 4 to 5 years old serviced or repaired? Everything breaks down with time. I've been there. You know what happens when you try to get something that old repaired. Here's a brief sampling of what i've run into in the past:

- sorry, parts that are special order and will take 2-3 weeks to get in;
- we don't have anybody here who can fix that so we have to send it out of town, it will take 3-4 weeks;
- the missing cable is propirtary and will take 3 weeks to get from overseas, and it cost aobut 25% of the cost of a whole new printer/camera;
- the total repair bill of new parts and service will be roughly 70% of the cost of a new unit, and with no warranty, why not just buy new?

...and so on, and so on, and so on. My dad likes to remind em that before we got rid of it, our 100 year old printing press was easier and quicker to fix.

I mean, I'm with you guys - I use a 4 year old digital camera myself, and have no need to replace it, but the minute anything goes wrong with it, I can tell you, the marketplace is geared to make money, and to do that is make sure you buy something new every five years.

That was the big problem with the film SLR market - most households had one, so the marketplace was saturated, few new sales. So out came the "point & shot" cameras with a million features. Re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

That sadly, IMO, is why with anything digital new "excuses" will come up constantly for upgrades. Personally I am happy to see people resisting this trend (aka - poor sales of Vista), but honestly, strickly from a business point of view, not a hobby point of view, anything digital has a limited life span.


joe

[Marko]

Joe, you are right regarding repairs, but that's slightly beside the point I was trying to make:

The price of a digital camera should be compared against the price of film one would shoot for the given time period, not against the price of a film camera. For serious amateurs and professionals, such as most people on this board, the price of film and processing over a period of even a couple of years can positively dwarf the price of the camera itself.

If you calculate a 3- to 5- extended warranty of a repair-or-replace type into the overall price, you can all but eliminate the need for repairs and still come ahead.

Same could be said for prints w/processing compared to computers.

Bottom line: you will pay approximately X amount of dollars for Y amount of shots over Z number of years no matter what technology you use. It's mostly when and how do you pay it.

P.S. From a perspective of a mixed-OS user and someone who's used all versions of Windows since it was first introduced, I can tell you that Vista is the first version I will try to skip altogether. Not because of resistance toward the trend you talk about - I consider it natural and futile to resist - but because it is so cheesy as if it was made by marketers and not engineers.

To make it a bit more clear, it is not the technology usage and development patterns that need to be resisted, it is marketing pervasiveness and increasing obnoxiousness. I am not a trout to be baited into using or buying something and if offends me greatly when I get treated as such.

Just my $0.02

[sog1927]

$1200??????

I think you're spending too much for your CPP-2.
I snagged mine (with lift) for $399 on the auction site and have sunk maybe $100 more into tanks and reels (I haven't gotten an expert drum yet, obviously). Does this alter your cost/benefit analysis?

Steve

[Jim Galli]

A Jobo is like an air compressor. Once you have one you wonder how you ever lived without one before. The initial 1200 bucks was definitely a hit. That said, if it broke I wouldn't wait a day before I found another one to replace the one I have. In my case it helped solve un-even development with pyro type developers which gave me a cake and eat it too scenario. I just bought a JOBO ATL to replace the CPA.

[audioexcels]

$1200??????

I think you're spending too much for your CPP-2.
I snagged mine (with lift) for $399 on the auction site and have sunk maybe $100 more into tanks and reels (I haven't gotten an expert drum yet, obviously). Does this alter your cost/benefit analysis?

Steve

That's super cheap. Was it a 22 based model (late model with new motor)??? The Expert drums are selling for $500-$600 for the pair used for 35mm-8X10 work.

If you got a "late production" CPP-2, you got a "steal" at $399. If you got an earlier model, it's still a fine price, but to see a late model go for this cheap is unheard of to me, at least. I prefer a late model just to feel safe about the new motor assembly in it. It's the next best thing to buying a new one.

This one had an extra lift (oh goody), but also an older serial number, with no expert drums and look what it ended at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jobo-CPP-2-darkr...QQcmdZViewItem

This was the last one to go on Ebay. The last CPA-2 went for $565 and had "basic" drums included and an older serial number.

[audioexcels]

A Jobo is like an air compressor. Once you have one you wonder how you ever lived without one before. The initial 1200 bucks was definitely a hit. That said, if it broke I wouldn't wait a day before I found another one to replace the one I have. In my case it helped solve un-even development with pyro type developers which gave me a cake and eat it too scenario. I just bought a JOBO ATL to replace the CPA.

I noticed that. I was curious why you went with the ATL since it is an older model, though I know it will make life, or should make life easier on you.

Thanks a lot for the input. Makes me want to stick even with MF film or even a cheap 35mm Film camera and just shoot film. I know digital is nice, but being able to process the film is very convenient. Thinking of time again:

What is the real difference in time when processing even a roll of 35mm vs. loading in 36 RAW shots from a 10MP+ digital camera? Of course one must then scan the film which is kinda like loading in the digital files, but in the end, is time really such a big deal?

Off-topic, yes, but seems like I have no choice but to use the Jobo. I think I may buy a less expensive CPA type and sell the nicer CPP2 so I can cut costs enough to warrant expenses for living.

Thanks Jim and Others!!!

[Baxter Bradford]

The ATL makes life so much easier, load with film and chemicals and forget. It beeps when everything is done. The time this frees up is probably immeasurable in cost terms, but life enhancing nonetheless.

As has been noted, labs are closing down their E6 and C41 lines and selling their ATL at cheap prices. For B+W having your own machine enables use of the more exotic developers which labs are loath to use.

Expert drums are not essential to get great processing results from a Jobo and are greatly skewing your costings IMO.