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Thread: foto3/VC Conference - merged thread

  1. #11
    Clay
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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Well, I can't resist being a bit of a wag.

    Think of it this way Bruce:

    There should be a whole lot fewer non-digital flat-earthers next year than there are right now!

    Now, I'm not saying that the noise level won't be pretty high....

    Seriously, I think most people are in actual practice pretty agnostic about digital versus analog. I know I am. And most people I know are as well. They recognize both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses, and use the right tool for the right problem.

    Maybe they could just set up two corners of the conference for fundamentalistas from each camp to huddle together and pat each other on the back. Meanwhile, the vast majority can just hang out in the middle and check out what cool things are happening in the photo world without sticking stupid labels on them.

    Then we can all watch the Sharks versus the Jets knife fights at the cocktail party.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
    Somebody's got to say it. Might as well be me. Sigh...

    This would make me rethink attending the conference. The APUG and Silver people are adamantly against what I do, which is to print digitally. Many are pretty judgmental and vocal about it. I don't know why I'd want to spend money to put myself in a position where I have to defend what I do. This isn't my idea of a good time.

    The thing is, LF isn't solely about analog. But APUG and Silver are indeed solely about analog. I can understand APUG and Silver wanting to team up together as they have lots of overlap. I thought View Camera was more open to new ideas and alternative ways of doing things. I guess that's changing.

  2. #12
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    I think we all should be more inclusive in our attitudes and acceptance of work that is different from our own...
    Exactly my point. And joining with APUG and Silver is not the way to accomplish this since both of these organizations are explicit in not accepting any digital photography. They define themselves as being exclusive.

    That's why I think this is a bad idea. You can only be more inclusive if both sides want it.

    Bruce Watson

  3. #13
    matthew blais's Avatar
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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Most shoot with film regardless of printing methodology.
    It is the element that will bind and make it a usefull conference. Who knows Bruce, could be a chance to convert some filmites...

    I think it's a good Idea as long as Silver doesn't have much say in the registration fee
    "I invent nothing, I rediscover"
    August Rodin

    My Now old Photo Site

  4. #14

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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    BTW, on a personal note I might mention that I did two workshops on alternative photography at the APUG conference last year in Toronto, and in both of them I used "digital" negatives. No one got up and walked out, including Sean Ross who attended one of them. So I am certain that folks like you who promote digital photography will be very welcome at the joint conference. I will certainly look forward to seeing you if you are there.
    I think you are right Sandy. There are some very anti-digital in any form on APUG, but most members simply want to protect the feeling of the site - it is the only site on the web strictly about traditional methods. In the years I've been on APUG I've been very upfront about my printing methods - Tango drum scan, followed by a print from a digital printer, onto traditional photographic paper (I don't use ink jet printers/paper in any form).

  5. #15

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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
    Exactly my point. And joining with APUG and Silver is not the way to accomplish this since both of these organizations are explicit in not accepting any digital photography. They define themselves as being exclusive.

    That's why I think this is a bad idea. You can only be more inclusive if both sides want it.
    I can not argue with you too much because some of the members of APUG are more "anti-digital" than "pro-traditional". And I personally pushed a long time for the inclusion of thread areas of the type I call "hybrid", for example using film but scanning and printing digital in one way or another. However, even when this kind of process might lead to a final wet-processed print, say a carbon or pt./pd. it was rejected by some members of APUG. My point has always been that using hybrid techniques is really a way to promote traditional print-making processes, and in this area I believe APUG is much to exclusive. Though I might add that the founder of APUG also started a separate hybrid forum, perhaps to get rid of seditious folks like me.

    On the whole, however, I like to think that most members of APUG simply want to promote and see traditional forms of photography continue. Interestingly, some of the most vociferous of the anti-digital group that set the tone for APUG in the early days have since left. But I think that proves a point that I have long tried to make, and that is that folks who are simply "anti-digital" are not necessarily the ones who are doing the most to promote traditional forms of photography.

    Sandy

  6. #16
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew blais View Post
    Who knows Bruce, could be a chance to convert some filmites...
    But I don't want to convert anyone. I think that people should use the processes with which they are most comfortable. If that process is end-to-end chemical photography, good on 'em. Most of the world's great photographs were made this way. It's a time honored approach and I don't have a problem with it, or with anyone who wants to work that way.

    What's bugging me is that the APUG and Silver organizations don't share that philosophy. Not only do I not want to convert anyone, but I don't want them trying to convert me either.

    What I'm worried about is a large and organized effort to push digital outside the tent. This is the kind of crap you have to consider in a merger when one group says "I want to include you" and another says "I want to exclude you" back. I'm just saying that the idea for this merger looks a whole lot like a merger with Microsoft. Software people learn the hard way what "Embrace and Extend and Extinguish" really means.

    Bruce Watson

  7. #17
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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Bruce, I wouldn't worry too much. Although the purpose of the Silver event, by definition, has been to promote traditional processes, its sponsors - including the lead sponsors, Ilford/Harman and Calumet - are anything but anti-digital jihadis. And I agree with Sandy, my impression is that there are plenty of people in APUG who are there for positive rather than negative reasons.

    Above all, with folks like Steve Simmons and Ted Harris running the show, I expect the prospects are good for an open-minded and enjoyable event.

  8. #18
    Ted Harris's Avatar
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    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    I have no interest in converting anyone nor in excluding anyone. I can tell you that the Conference will embrace all photography and all photographers. Please remember that the ideas and opinions of a few vocal folk on a Forum don't necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of the Forum or of the Conference. As to Solver shunning digital in the past ... wait and see. This will be one conference with one voice and the voice will be that of photographers no matter what they shoot or how they print. If there are those who object then I imagine it is they who will stay away not thos eof us who are not media or process biased. I can tell you that Sean feels this way.

  9. #19

    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    I can not argue with you too much because some of the members of APUG are more "anti-digital" than "pro-traditional". And I personally pushed a long time for the inclusion of thread areas of the type I call "hybrid", for example using film but scanning and printing digital in one way or another. However, even when this kind of process might lead to a final wet-processed print, say a carbon or pt./pd. it was rejected by some members of APUG. My point has always been that using hybrid techniques is really a way to promote traditional print-making processes, and in this area I believe APUG is much to exclusive. Though I might add that the founder of APUG also started a separate hybrid forum, perhaps to get rid of seditious folks like me.

    On the whole, however, I like to think that most members of APUG simply want to promote and see traditional forms of photography continue. Interestingly, some of the most vociferous of the anti-digital group that set the tone for APUG in the early days have since left. But I think that proves a point that I have long tried to make, and that is that folks who are simply "anti-digital" are not necessarily the ones who are doing the most to promote traditional forms of photography.

    Sandy
    Well Sandy, if we are going to tell on people we might as well tell the whole truth and not just your side. The reason many people rejected your hybrid methods was because you joined an analog site and insisted on talking about digital techniques. I told you then and I am telling you now, this is like you comming to my house and I ask you not to smoke and you decide you are going to smoke anyway. In the end Ross decided to aceept it and that was the end of that.

    As to the "vociferous" anti digital crowd, I suppose you include me there and I don't know about the others but the reason I left was because Ross' silly censorship rules where he or the moderators have to "approve" your posts before they are posted to which (and I was told this by Ross himself) they would take a day or two to "approve" them so that the person would get discouraged and leave without them having to tell them to do so. Many left for this reason and not because they were "anti digital" and unhappy with the way APUG was.

    As to the conference and Bruce's objection, many in APUG use both digital and traditional but according to APUG's charter those who use both have the COURTESY to limit their contribuitions to analog when they post in APUG. I think the 3 way conference is a good idea and in fact it might make for a more interesting conference.

  10. #20

    Re: View Camera Confrence 2008

    Holy cripes folks, it is the diversity in this art form that makes it interesting. Even though it is not my cup of tea I love looking at digital images or hear about digital negatives because it is important to keep ones eye's open to innovation in its purest form. I respect and admire all people that make images and anyone that slams others for not being like them just does not get it. Come to the conference because you are passionate about LF photography and expect to shake some hands and all will be very well.

    Cheers!

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